Live Feeding Debate V1.0

louise · #1 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 09:10 PM

This is version 1 of the debate " feeding live.". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

1 why people feel it is okay to feed live
2. why people feel it isn't okay

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1) As always, please stay on topic. Off topic replies, will be removed.
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5) Before posting, please read the rules of this forum.
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Enjoy, and have fun!

louise · #2 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 09:11 PM

first off i wanna say i am not debating this about hots, i have no experience with them. my experience is with ball pythons and redtails. someone with hot experience can help with hots and F/T. i feel there is no reason to feed a snake live prey. i havre many reasons why i feel they should never see live prey.
1. your snake is trapped in a small place with a very angry rodent, the snake may not be hungry but the rodent could be. snakes do not seem to kill just to kill. the snake isn't hungry and the rodent is. the rodent can and will start eating the snake.

2.freezing the prey will kill parasites, parasites can kill your snake.

parasite (pār'ə-sīt') Pronunciation Key
An organism that lives on or in a different kind of organism (the host) from which it gets some or all of its nourishment. Parasites are generally harmful to their hosts, although the damage they do ranges widely from minor inconvenience to debilitating or fatal disease.

3. do not think 'how much damage can a small mouse do?' a perfectly aimed bite to the snakes head can kill it.

4. do not think 'if my snake gets bit i can just take it to the vet.' snakes infection is not like ours. thiers is hard and like cottage cheese. the vet cannot just pierce and drain the pus out. my snake had her lump drained and lanced many times, the lump just kept returning. she had 3 surgerys over a rat bite. the final surgery they had to put her under and remove all tissue and all forms of infection. she will always be missing the top part of her eye now. it took years to finally get her 100% and a clean bill of health. it also took 1,500.00 dollars to save her.

5.you can get your snake to switch over to F/T. i always hear 'my snake just wont eat already dead prey' that is not true. it is because you haven't found the right trick to get your snake to switch. maybe you didn't wait long enough for the snake to get good and hungry, maybe you didn't dangle the prey, did you dangle the prey in front of the hide box while the snake was hiding? there are many things you can try and one of them will work. i have helped so many people on the site to get thier snakes that just wouldnt switch, switched.
like the smartest snake person i know says '"How do I switch" Not "how does my snake switch" (thanks brett). it is the owner who needs to learn how to get the snake to take F/T.

if you still want more proof of what rat/mouse bites can do...click on this link.

http://redtailboa.net/forums/feeding...ight=live+pile

amercnwmn · #3 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 09:41 PM

I 100% agree with NOT feeding live, and its thanks to stories like Chance's that I recommend only feeding f/t.

I thinkn there are exceptions, but overrall I do agree. If it comes down to my snake starving (example: neglected by another owner and not fed for a LONG time, and has repeatedly refused F/t)( AND YES that HAS happened) or a neonate that has continually refused f/t, and is regressing in health, I will offer live untill it improves, and continue to attempt the switch to F/T.

Bluzmn59 · #4 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 09:56 PM

I agree that only F/T is acceptable. I have had nowhere near the experience that others on this site have had, but I have switched a Ball Python over to F/T without much trouble. Also, when I got my BRB, the seller told me that he was eating live mice and I may have trouble. I let him settle in for a few days and then offered him a rat pup dangled my forceps and he took it like that was all he had ever seen.

This may sound silly to some, but I also think the prey animal should be considered. It is a living, sentient being, and I do not believe that rats and mice should suffer needlessly because most of us feel the reptiles are more important. JMHO.

TongueFlick · #5 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:01 PM

I agree with everyone so far; f/t is the way to go. I have seen SO many pics of deformed snakes, I don't know why feeding f/t is allowed. IMO, the UK did the right thing by passing the "no live feeding" laws. I would hope that everyone would feed their snakes, (not sure about hots though) f/t, or at least p/k. (But, as many people have pointed out, there is still the parasite factor.)
This rule passes with my savannah monitor too; NO live. I have seen pics of a monitor lizard that had it's skull cracked in two by a hungry adult mouse. I dodn't really want to see that pic again, but I could try to find the link if you request it of me.

I hope I've made my message clear; please don't feed live mammals to your reptiles.
All the best, TongueFlick

Bluzmn59 · #6 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:05 PM

I should add that I know nothing about keeping "hots" so, if that is different I would not know.

louise · #7 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:07 PM

i have been told many times that Dumerils need live thier first few feedings, then after that they will take F/T.

DannyBoy · #8 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:36 PM

First off, I want everyone to know that I think that frozen/thawed is by far the best way to go for all of the already stated reasons(parasites, attacks by prey items, ect...). Hpwever, I have heard such phrases on this site and others that say their is no excuse for not feeding f/t. I will respectively disagree. Since this is a debate, I want it understood that I am not advocating live feedings over F/T. I am simply stated that since this is an imperfect world, there are certain situations that a F/T may not be a immediately possible. I will try to explain and give a few examples. First example as we all know some species of snake are reluctant to take rodents. This could arise from many different reasons varing from certain species prefer rodents to wild caught stressed individuals that just won't take anything but what they are used to in the wild. Whatever the reason for the reluctance to eat F/T we have many, many different ways to help our snakes overcome their "reluctance" and we should try as best we can to use those "tricks of the trade" first. However if after awhile it may become an issue of nourishment and a live item may need to be selected. At this point we should not abandone our attempts to persuade the snake to F/T, we should continue to try for F/T. Luckily in my own experience and from what I have heard from others, most of our snakes take to F/T with a little effort long before health issues become apparent. I have had two cases that this is not the case(both being BP that I have raised since babies). These two BP's are being very stubborn and are taking more effort to switch. Progress is being made as now after a year of trying we are off live and onto F/K. I am confident that they will be onto F/T within a few months. This is just one instance and I am sure we can all think of several others that might arise and lead us to feed live prey. To summarize it is my opinion that live prey should be a last resort used only in case of steady, unhealthy decline in the animal due to not feeding and that F/T is possible with hard work and patience.

DannyBoy · #9 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louise

i have been told many times that Dumerils need live thier first few feedings, then after that they will take F/T.

P.S. As a side note to Louise's comment, I also had a tuff time with my Dumeril's getting her onto F/T, but now that is all she eats.

louise · #10 (**permalink**) 03-22-2007, 11:59 PM

dannyboy, i agree with everything you said. but there are so many tricks, maybe you might have missed the one that would do it. with my BP i have to lay the prey with its head sticking inside the hide box, then i have to leave my BP totally alone. befor i use to have to wiggle the prey in front of his hide, but for some reason that quit working.
i would definately feed live if it was a matter of life and death for my snake, this may sound horrible, but i would knock the rats teeth out first.

DannyBoy · #11 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louise

i would definately feed live if it was a matter of life and death for my snake, this may sound horrible, but i would knock the rats teeth out first.

LOL. That is great!!
You are right though. I very well could have missed one trick that would of done it. That is the tough part, but you do your best. Patience really is the key.

TongueFlick · #12 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by louise

i would definately feed live if it was a matter of life and death for my snake, this may sound horrible, but i would knock the rats teeth out first.

Man, I never thought about the obvisous!

LOL

morti · #13 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

i would definately feed live if it was a matter of life and death for my snake, this may sound horrible, but i would knock the rats teeth out first.

Not only does it sound horrible, it sounds like illegal cruel and inhumane treatment of the prey item. There are many good reasons to feed frozen/thawed over live, and I will not argue that point, but I will note that preventing pain to your snake is not, in my opinion, a good reason to inflict pain and suffering on another creature. This type of extreme behavior would be seen by many as sadistic.

So please, whatever you do, do not subject a rodent to injury just because you don't want it to bite your snake.

louise · #14 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morti

Not only does it sound horrible, it sounds like illegal cruel and inhumane treatment of the prey item. There are many good reasons to feed frozen/thawed over live, and I will not argue that point, but I will note that preventing pain to your snake is not, in my opinion, a good reason to inflict pain and suffering on another creature. This type of extreme behavior would be seen by many as sadistic.

So please, whatever you do, do not subject a rodent to injury just because you don't want it to bite your snake.

well morti, that is where me and you are different. the snake is my responsiblity... and what that means to me is....i will do whatever it takes to care for the said creature. chance was a rescue and rescue is what i did and will continue to do. if for some reason my child could only eat rats, i sure as heck would make them safe as possible. my snakes are not just a collection or hobby to me and i do not have them to make money off them. chance especially is family to me.

louise · #15 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 02:11 AM

after thought, also how can removing a rats teeth be any worse then removing a snakes venom gland? sure a licensed vet wouldn't be doing the teeth removing but they dont do venomoids either. getting rid of the rats teeth so that my snake is safe isn't any different then making a venomoid to make the owner more safe.

RevMojo · #16 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 02:26 AM

I'm losing you here louise...are you saying that knocking the rats teeth out would make you as bad as a garage hack that produces venomoids?

But to steer things back on topic...I agree live feeding should be a last resort thing. Except for the knock the teeth out thing, this ain't much of a debate. You lurkers who've been wanting your chance to argue your side, but feared the wrath...now's your chance. Why is live feeding a good idea?

louise · #17 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevMojo

I'm losing you here louise...are you saying that knocking the rats teeth out would make you as bad as a garage hack that produces venomoids?
But to steer things back on topic...I agree live feeding should be a last resort thing. Except for the knock the teeth out thing, this ain't much of a debate. You lurkers who've been wanting your chance to argue your side, but feared the wrath...now's your chance. Why is live feeding a good idea?

i was just saying that how can one feel voids are okay but it is horrible to have a rats teeth taken out. and back on topic. that would be the very very last thing i resorted to.

JuliusSqueezer · #18 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 02:42 AM

Just because one thing is horrible and cruel does not make another horrible and cruel act ok. Knocking the teeth out of an alert, live, conscious rodent is hardcore cruel and is indeed illegal. Please reconsider this.

I think this debate is meant for rodent eaters. Toad, lizard, fish eaters etc...kind of a different set of circumstances.

As a venomous keeper though who keeps mostly wildcaught north american pitvipers, I find it just as easy to get them to take f/t as anything else. Usually the first offering. That's all I can really speak for. I've never kept cobras or gabbys or any of that crazy exotic stuff.

No doubt a live rodent will get more attention from most snakes than prekilled or frozen/thawed. It does! So when a snake is suffering from appetite suppressing stress and won't take frozen/thawed, many people offer live and because the snake eats, they are convinced it's all about the status of the food. The reality is, whatever is stressing them should have been weeded out instead of feeding live in most cases. Prolonging the stress can lead to them not taking live either eventually...then what? If your snake isn't eating, figure out what's stressing it...fix that first and most times it will eat. There are a gazillion different sets of cirmcumstances that are unique so no one answer is going to cover all.

louise · #19 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Just because one thing is horrible and cruel does not make another horrible and cruel act ok. Knocking the teeth out of an alert, live, conscious rodent is hardcore cruel and is indeed illegal. Please reconsider this.

it would never come to that. i would fix whatever is wrong. there would be 1,000s of things to try and one of them would work.

natas · #20 (**permalink**) 03-23-2007, 06:25 AM

Julius, I got a question for you about Venomous reptiles and live feeding. I have almost zero knowledge on the subject, so I really want your input...or any other venomous keepers knowledge.

What if you had a venomous snake that just would not take f/t or pk food. What if it meant life or death and required a force feed later on. Later that month as a experiment you found out the venomous would not take f/t or pk food after you tried all of your known tricks but would take live. Would you let the snake come to near death again and force feed it the next time or just let it eat a live rat/mouse?

Would putting yourself in danger each time you have to force feed change the outlook?

BTW, I only ask this because I have only had to force feed one snake and that was years ago with help from a yet. It was hard enough doing this to a 8ft RTB. After that the vet told me to try live next feed, and after I "stunned" the rat the snake took it just fine. Eventually she ended up eating f/t but it took a good while....

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