Live Feeding Debate V1.0

[momakat]

When my daughter and I got our first snake we fed live rat pups. As they grew and their prey got bigger I started getting nervous about the teeth. When Rex insisted I take him home with me I fed him live as well - it was the way we were told to feed by the shop owners. We didn't know any different. I always felt a bit of success when they struck and killed their prey at the same time feeling a bit sorry for the rat(s) and their apparent suffering. Then I found this place and started questioning the method of feeding. And I finally 'met' Chance and Louise.

I was appalled at the injuries and greatly admired how Louise took care of Chance. So thinking I was doing a good thing I started feeding f/k and it went well . . . no problems switching at all. Then one day a medium rat 'woke up' from what I thought had killed it. That rat was so mad and I was so scared for Rex - I was a nervous wreck that feeding. After that I made good and well sure that the rat was dead, dead, dead.

Having heard how hard it is supposed to be to switch BPs to f/t I was unsure about it. Finally took the plunge and only had to wriggle a little bit the first couple times. Rex has always been fed outside of his enclosure - and has to date never refused a f/t feeding. He may play with his food for a while - but does eat it. And now there are times he doesn't even strike . . . just plays and starts to swallow when it suits him. I now have confidence that he will never get bitten, should not get any parasites from his prey, and that switching can be done. As I was once told - it was me with the issues and not my snake.

I totally agree it is proper thing to do to feed f/t. That being said - I hope that when I get my baby snakes there will be no problems using f/t over live pups. But if I have to use live - at least there are no teeth to injure them and they will be eating f/t long before that would be a concern to them or to me.

[VoodooChile]

One of the most famous arguments PRO live feeding is "more natural to them" and as Brett & Louise touched on, natural means survival of the fittest. As pets, we want our animals to live, not just strive to survive, as they would in the wild.
Most animals don't have the life spans in the wild that they have in captivity.
Dogs hunt in packs naturally, but do you want your Yorkie running with coyotes?
Cats eat mice and birds, but I am not going to make mine go out hunting for its food, even if it is more "natural".
More natural for the animals doesn't always mean SAFEST. Since they are our pets, we want to do BETTER by them.

[morti]

The following few posts were joined with this thread from another thread found here:

http://redtailboa.net/forums/venomou...-photos-2.html

[morti]

Actually, because the time stamp of the first post is earlier than the one from the first post of this thread, It spread them out by timestamp throughout the thread. I merged the posts... and it put them at the begining... so now I am just going to quote them all.

Originally Posted by joetronic

It's not that it's "inhumane" to feed live, its that is potentially dangerous to the snake. Mice and rats can bite, and hard. A bite to the face can lead to life threatening complications, I've and many many others here have seen it happen. Feeding live needs to be done at times though. I would rather take the chance feeding live then see the snake die of starvation or have to force feed it. Only live feedings need to be under supervision and not eaten food items need to be removed. And constrictors can still be enticed to constrict f/t or fresh killed, not that there is any proof that it actually helps with muscle development. Same with venom. Just my .02 though.

I think most people would know the potential dangers involved with feeding live, however when i feed live, it is very rare that any of my snakes don't take immediately and in the cases where they don't take immediately, i wait and watch and if within minutes, there is no interest, i remove the prey item and return it to its cage. The majority of people getting upset due to live feeding however in my experience is that they are concerned for the feeder rodents and that it is inhumane, however, it is just nature. I don't wish to spark another debate on the matter as i have seen issues like this blow up into huge arguments. Your 2 cents is noted and appreciated though and its always good to get another persons views on matters.

I have little or no feelings for the mouse or rat. I've been bitten by enough mice to have very little love for them! It's funny how most people are concerned about whether or not the snake eats it immediately. While leaving a hungry rodent in the cage with a snake is stupid, there are more incidences of damage to eyes and rostrum while striking and taking the rat than leaving it. I have a book full of blind and seriously nose damaged snakes that struck at and didn't quite get the mouse or rat perfectly, allowing the animal to sink it's teeth into the face or neck. You can't stop that from happening no matter how much you sit there and watch. By the time you react, it's already done. And what exactly are you going to do when it latches on to that hot anyway...reach in and pull it off Some of the w/c animals won't take f/t or even f/k...you do what you have to, but you are taking a serious risk. Since we put them into a confined space, they really don't have the safety zone of retreat or repositioning if they want to as they would in nature.

It's not that it's "inhumane" to feed live, its that is potentially dangerous to the snake. Mice and rats can bite, and hard. A bite to the face can lead to life threatening complications, I've and many many others here have seen it happen. Feeding live needs to be done at times though. I would rather take the chance feeding live then see the snake die of starvation or have to force feed it. Only live feedings need to be under supervision and not eaten food items need to be removed. And constrictors can still be enticed to constrict f/t or fresh killed, not that there is any proof that it actually helps with muscle development. Same with venom. Just my .02 though.

I think most people would know the potential dangers involved with feeding live, however when i feed live, it is very rare that any of my snakes don't take immediately and in the cases where they don't take immediately, i wait and watch and if within minutes, there is no interest, i remove the prey item and return it to its cage. The majority of people getting upset due to live feeding however in my experience is that they are concerned for the feeder rodents and that it is inhumane, however, it is just nature. I don't wish to spark another debate on the matter as i have seen issues like this blow up into huge arguments. Your 2 cents is noted and appreciated though and its always good to get another persons views on matters.

I have little or no feelings for the mouse or rat. I've been bitten by enough mice to have very little love for them! It's funny how most people are concerned about whether or not the snake eats it immediately. While leaving a hungry rodent in the cage with a snake is stupid, there are more incidences of damage to eyes and rostrum while striking and taking the rat than leaving it. I have a book full of blind and seriously nose damaged snakes that struck at and didn't quite get the mouse or rat perfectly, allowing the animal to sink it's teeth into the face or neck. You can't stop that from happening no matter how much you sit there and watch. By the time you react, it's already done. And what exactly are you going to do when it latches on to that hot anyway...reach in and pull it off Some of the w/c animals won't take f/t or even f/k...you do what you have to, but you are taking a serious risk. Since we put them into a confined space, they really don't have the safety zone of retreat or repositioning if they want to as they would in nature.

[bleeding_sarcasm]

that post is .... really hard to read. Like i get what you were trying to do, but the same quotes and info are posted twice, and, i dont know who is quoting joetronic, and responding, since it says he is saying everything. it might be easier to read if you break everything up.

Originally Posted by zero5000

Gee Joe, i gotta shake my head..you feed live..how could you ;-p~~~ no, but really, are people seriously getting upset about live feeding here? I never understood that. The only way i feed normally is live, unless as precaution for certain snakes, i freeze smaller rat pups in case later i don't have live, thats the only case. I believe that especially for the constrictors, it keeps them strong and healthy as they have to constrict and flex those muscles. For hots, i believe it recycles their venom and helps to keep the flow going...plus...its freakin nature. What, did God start freezing all the feeder animals and say it's inhumane to feed live? No, it is the way god intended it to be!!!

Originally Posted by joetronic

It's not that it's "inhumane" to feed live, its that is potentially dangerous to the snake. Mice and rats can bite, and hard. A bite to the face can lead to life threatening complications, I've and many many others here have seen it happen. Feeding live needs to be done at times though. I would rather take the chance feeding live then see the snake die of starvation or have to force feed it. Only live feedings need to be under supervision and not eaten food items need to be removed. And constrictors can still be enticed to constrict f/t or fresh killed, not that there is any proof that it actually helps with muscle development. Same with venom. Just my .02 though.

and im not sure who the last bit is quoting, weather its what zero5000 said back to joetronic or what morti said in response to all of it. but it needs to be in its own seperate quote, unless morti said it, in which case, plain text is fine.
i think the first bit is zero5000 again, because hes talking about feeding live?

Originally Posted by zero5000?

I think most people would know the potential dangers involved with feeding live, however when i feed live, it is very rare that any of my snakes don't take immediately and in the cases where they don't take immediately, i wait and watch and if within minutes, there is no interest, i remove the prey item and return it to its cage. The majority of people getting upset due to live feeding however in my experience is that they are concerned for the feeder rodents and that it is inhumane, however, it is just nature. I don't wish to spark another debate on the matter as i have seen issues like this blow up into huge arguments. Your 2 cents is noted and appreciated though and its always good to get another persons views on matters.

annddd?

Originally Posted by joetronic?

I have little or no feelings for the mouse or rat. I've been bitten by enough mice to have very little love for them! It's funny how most people are concerned about whether or not the snake eats it immediately. While leaving a hungry rodent in the cage with a snake is stupid, there are more incidences of damage to eyes and rostrum while striking and taking the rat than leaving it. I have a book full of blind and seriously nose damaged snakes that struck at and didn't quite get the mouse or rat perfectly, allowing the animal to sink it's teeth into the face or neck. You can't stop that from happening no matter how much you sit there and watch. By the time you react, it's already done. And what exactly are you going to do when it latches on to that hot anyway...reach in and pull it off Some of the w/c animals won't take f/t or even f/k...you do what you have to, but you are taking a serious risk. Since we put them into a confined space, they really don't have the safety zone of retreat or repositioning if they want to as they would in nature.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Wow...that is hard to follow and once you suffer through it...what's the point?

It's natural to feed live. So? It's also natural to feed dead prey. Snakes do scavange in the wild! It's also natural to lay your snake on the road and run over it with your truck I guess. God knows it happens plenty in nature. When you put any animal in a cage and commit to it's care, Nature is the absoulte worst guide you can draw from if you want to actually keep anything alive. Certain things like temperatures and humidity may or may not even be in the animals true best interest. Certainly floods and forest fires aren't. There is a great deal more to consider...many variables that matter a great deal other than just what you perceive a snake does with it's day in the wild every day. Perhaps the most important thing that you SHOULD consider about snakes in nature is that compared to the numbers born or hatched every year, almost NONE of them survive to adulthood. It's quite rare actually that any reptile survives to maturity when considering the overwhelming majorit