Permit systems for large constrictors debate V1.0

[natas]

Big Thanks go out to VoodooChile for the idea!

This is version 1 of the debate "Permit systems for large constrictors". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

* Are permit systems for large constrictors helpful or a hindrance?
* Anything else to do with permit systems on large constrictors.

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Your opinion on the matters above are important.
Enjoy, and have fun!

[VoodooChile]

Thanks Shane!

My own thoughts on permits are something if I HAVE to get one to keep the animals I want, I will do so, and I will abide by the laws.
I have a real problem forking out money to the government, though when it is not going back into helping the animals somehow; or keeping the animals from abuse/neglect/improper care.

Most of the permit systems that are being introduced as legislation do NOT require anything more than an application and a fee. No specific training, or education, or investigation of the housing are required, like those for venomous permits.

Many people say "its just like for dogs and cats, you have to get them licensed".
Yes, and we see how well THAT has worked to protect the animals from improper care, and housing.
How many people still keep dogs/cats that are NOT licensed? You don't hear of people panicking because a Lhasa Apso was found without proper licensing on the news. You WILL however hear about the illegally kept large snake that is capable of killing kids, animals, etc..
Also, shelters, rescues, federal funding and officials exist to help dogs and cats (ferrets, etc) and provide them with new homes, or assistance.
Such accomodations are not provided for reptiles, and many places are not capable of housing an adult large constrictor, much less feeding it.

So what happens to the illegally kept animals when they are seized?? There aren't enough shelters for reptiles, and the animal shelters usually can't handle the animals.

I think it would be a good system IF the money were placed BACK into caring for animals that were illegally/improperly kept and education as well as providing officers to investigate and follow up on the animals. Of course, that would drive the permit price WAY up.

It appears the permits are currently just another way for the government to make money, in my opinion, and of course, up for debate

[natas]

Florida is another great example of why it maybe a great idea to enforce permits on large constrictors.

Florida has burms, retics and boas roaming the area. They also have "flocks" of iggys in certain areas.

Personally I think you must be at least 18 years or older to buy a large constrictor or parent permission.

[RevMojo]

I wouldn't be uncomfortable with a reasonable system of permitting on potentially dangerous reptiles (i know..what's potentially dangerous, except fodder for a new debate, perhaps v1.1?) as long as it dealt evenly with both buyers and sellers.

[Bluzmn59]

Potential problems with any permit system, IMHO, include how to define what needs a permit and what steps are taken to enforce the system.

The title of this thread includes the term "large" constrictors. That, to me, is a sliding scale. To me, Burms, Retics, African Rocks, Anacondas, etc. are large constrictors. But I guarantee you that my mother thinks my 6' RTB is HUGE! Some of the truly uninitiated may see a 4' BP as a large constrictor. Do you then use a definition of "dangerous?" What, then, is dangerous? Personally, I do not consider the boids to be "dangerous" when handled correctly, yet I would consider venomous snakes to be dangerous for me with my lack of experience and knowledge. Someone skilled in handling hots probably does not consider them "dangerous." It is all relative, yet it will have to be defined in black and white by some legislative body.

The second issue involves enforcement. I have 4 snakes and a tortoise in my house and I would bet that nobody knows it if they do not know me. How do you force me to adhere to the rules requiring that I obtain permits? With internet sales and unregulated reptile shows, it is virtually impossible to prevent someone from obtaining almost anything they want without permits. So sanctions or penalties could only be assessed when someone is found to be in possession of non-permitted animals. Do we require that veterinarians only treat permitted animals? Is there mandatory reporting? Wouldn't that lead to reptiles not getting treatment when needed or are we assuming that all responsible herpers would get the necessary permits? What penalties are assessed? Fines? Seizures? And as outlined earlier, what happens to the money? What happens to the seized collections?

One of the problems with being a lawyer by training is that the questions just keep coming. Personally, I see a lot of problems with a permit system. If the alternative is outright banishment, however.............

[VoodooChile]

All Great points.
I will try to clarify on what I understand "Large constrictor" to mean in terms of the laws that are being proposed:
I believe most legislation existing refers to "large" as anything 6ft or with the potential to reach over 6ft.
According to Central Pets.com, the American Federation of Herpetoculturists (AFH) lists 8ft as the size in consideration to a large constrictor.
Also, here is an example of the law from New York, I know it's specified what size (or species) classifies a snake as LARGE, but I didn't have a chance to look it up. Scales & Tails Link to NY laws
In February, Baltimore sought to ban snakes over 5ft in length.
I hope that clears up the size issue.. carry on..
I'd love to hear how it would affect people who breed boas and larger snake species? To get both sides of the issue. How do people like Ben Renick and Tom McCarthy, who both breed larger species of snakes, feel about this?

[SoberGuy]

Would such legislation encourage constrictors to be underfed, to try and keep them below, say, an 8 foot threshold?