Is the Morph fad Killing Herpetoculture V1.0

[natas]

This is version 1 of the debate "Is the Morph Fad Killing Herpetoculture". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

In this thread we will talk about the following:

* How the Morph fad is Killing Herpetoculture?
* Why the Morph fad has helped herpetoculture
* Will the Morph fad mess up the market? How it will or will not.
* Is this "fad" going to last and become permanent or will it die off like a true fad?


Special rules for this thread:
1) As always, please stay on topic. Off topic replies, will be removed.
2) Limit small replies like "that was awesome", or "Your wrong". Instead of replying like this, use rep or the "thank you" button.
3) Try your best to back your statement up with scientific fact, studies you have read or done.
4) DO NOT plagiarize. If you quote someones findings, please give credit by providing the name, or a direct link.
5) Before posting, please read the rules of this forum.
6) 10 day bans for personal attacks on persons or companies.

THIS IS NOT A INBREEDING DEBATE THREAD. Go debate here for that.
THIS IS NOT A ALBINO IS WRONG OR RIGHT THREAD. Go debate here for that.

Enjoy, and have fun!

[Reptilia]

I don't have an opinion or any statements to make with facts, but I have a question on the subject which would be cool if somebody could answer. Will the introduction of morphs into the snake trade mean that other snakes which could be considered "common" be sold cheaper because of morphs? err.. let me rephrase more specific to what I'm asking. People seem quite keen to own a morph or some kind of rare snake which is not naturally rare through breeding practices in the wild, but from breeding practices by keepers.

Like leucistic snakes for example. Well these snakes have quite a high price on them, so do a lot of the ball python morphs. I am thinking that if people show more interest in these wont less interest be shown in other more common snakes. Perhaps even snakes which were before considered rare, but because morphs are rare(ish) the other snakes might not be considered so rare or special. So might the prices drop on those snakes?

[RevMojo]

I know debate means I'm supposed to pick a side and argue that, but I've got opinions on both sides of the fence.

1) No, morphs are not killing the industry, because they encourage innovation, and foster an interest in herps in those who may not have otherwise been interested. Sometimes you need "eye-catching" color to catch a few extra eyes. Some snakes are just meant to be ugly (I think the correct scientific word for it is "camouflage") and until a person learns more, they don't acquire a taste for the wild type.

2) Yes, the unhealthy breeding practices attributed to some breeders is creating a problem, but I don't think it's a problem that will drive people away from herps, but rather back to wild types.

3) I don't think the demand for morphs is so high that they will replace wild types in the market. Someone will bring up corns, I'm sure, and they could be the exception, but the normals are so well "camouflaged" that I kinda understand the demand for morphs in this case. Out of curiousity, do corn morphs have the same genetic issues that others are allegedly prone to?

[JuliusSqueezer]

Oh joy...I get to repeat my whole debate

Over the past several years there has been a steady decline in the number of species available on the market. Many of them that are still available aren't near AS available and many of them are also in danger of dissapearing from the market. There has been a steady rise of specialized single species but different morphs. I don't believe the decline of one and the rise of another is coincidence. In particular, the ball python morphs. While there certainly is a lot of diversity in ball pythons, they only account for a single species regardless of their colors and pattern. Many people are abandoning other species for these little money making gems.

While the other species are being kicked aside...and as a business, you really can't blame the breeders for concentrating on something that sells for thousands instead of things that sell for 10s or 100s...but breeding ethics seems to have been tossed out the window all together for whatever works the fastest. In the aftermath of all of this, we have spider and bumblebee balls that are basically bobble head snakes that exhibit symptoms of serious neurological disease. Of course the unethical breeders that are raking in the big bucks off of these unfortunate disasters are claiming it's just a personality trait. AND PEOPLE ARE BUYING THIS! Carmel balls with kinked spines, I forget right off what the problem with the woma balls was mentioned in the last debate....but that's 4 of the NERD designer lines that were eagerly inbred/massproduced and sold for big bucks with seemingly absolutely no regard for the health of these animals. Fortunatly for them and unfortunatly for the animals, there are plenty of other unethical takers with dollar sign eyeballs wanting in on the action so bad that they don't care either.

All of this morph craze has a rippling effect that effects lots of different things. Not just washing out the lowly other species that don't seem to matter to many people any more. It also is effecting the wild import business in the opposite direction you would think. Because of the high price of these mutants, it's more economical to buy a male and breed him to several females for hets. What better disposable breeders than w/c females that you can pick up at any show for 5-10 bucks each in bulk? There is a remarkable rise in the import ball python business. Anyway, I've been over and over all of this in those other threads. I just figured I'd put in my 3 cents and change

I will add this though...attracting new people to the hobby for the wrong reasons and at the cost of health and life to a great many animals is not what I would call a positive ripple effect.

AND, what happens down the road when all we have to choose from is scaleless, bobble head, inbred to oblivion ball pythons and one eyed boas and a few scattered odds and ends?...only then to find out that borders have closed to export, wild populations have fallen to natural disaster, killed off by man, or otherwise unavailable for any number of other reasons... not to mention, the strain it would cause on wild populations once everybody figures out all their money makers are no longer wanted because the demand for these mutants is low...so they go after what they can from the import market in hopes of deeper genepools.

There needs to be a better balance of things than what we have and what we are headed for. There needs to be more demand from us consumer/hobbiests for better ethics. If we quit buing inbred head bobbler one eyed mutants and demand that the breeders show some ethics, they WILL do what the customers demand if they want to sell their animals. Again, I don't hate morphs. I love most of them as much as anyone. I dispise the damage done though by the morph craze and the overwhelming poor ethics of breeders that spawned from it.

[natas]

Hate to interrupt, but please remember to not turn this thread into a inbreeding debate. We have a separate thread on that. I know its hard to not mention inbreeding, and a small mention of it is fine, but do your best to stay on the specific topic

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally Posted by natas

Hate to interrupt, but please remember to not turn this thread into a inbreeding debate. We have a separate thread on that. I know its hard to not mention inbreeding, and a small mention of it is fine, but do your best to stay on the specific topic

It had to be mentioned. It is one of the factors that is causing the morph craze to destroy a huge part of our hobby. If we can't discuss the "why's" then a simple yes or no poll would have been sufficient. Usless and uneducational...but sufficient.

[natas]

I understand Julius, I just want to stay on topic. There is a debate thread dedicated to inbreeding, thats all I am saying. http://redtailboa.net/forums/debate/...te-v1-0-a.html

Now back onto the topic. Sorry about the interruption, please continue everyone.

[morti]

Over the past several years there has been a steady decline in the number of species available on the market. Many of them that are still available aren't near AS available and many of them are also in danger of dissapearing from the market.

To test your theory, I decided to make a list of the species posted Today on Kingsnake.com's classifieds.

Ball Python
Angolan Python
Reticulated Python
Irian Jaya Python
Borneo Short Tail Python
Macklots Python
Sumatran Red Blood Python
White Lipped Python
Calabar Python
Spotted Python
Scrub Python
Jungle Carpet Python
Savu Python
Woma Python
Burmese Python
Malaysian Blood Python
Black Headed Python
Ring Python
Rock Python
Amazon Tree Boa
Anulated Tree Boa
Green Tree Python
Indonesian Tree Boa
Emerald Tree Boa
Madagascar Tree Boa
Boa constrictor imperator
Boa c. occidentalis
Boa c. constrictor
Saharan Sand Boa
Kenyan Sand Boa
Rosy Boa
Viper Boa
Dumerils Boa
Yellow Anaconda
Brazilian Rainbow Boa
Green Anaconda
Cuban Boa
Peruvian Rainbow Boa
Madagascar ground Boa
Tiger Rat Snake
Grey Rat Snake
Texas Rat Snake
Black Rat snake
Green Rat snake
Cave Dwelling Rat Snake
Black-tailed Rat Snake
Taiwan Beauty Snake
Egyptian Rat Snake
Mandarin Rat Snake *CB*
Corn Snake
Grey Banded King Snake
Arizona Mountain King snake
Honduran Milk Snake
California King Snake
Goini King
Prarie King Snake
Florida King Snake
San Louis Potosi King Snake
Blotched King Snake
Brooks King Snake
Nelsons Milk Snake
Desert King Snake
Pueblan Milk Snake
Sinaloan Milk Snake
Pale Milk Snake
Red Milk Snake
Northern Pine Snake
Florida Pine Snake
African House Snake
Western Coachwhip
Tri-color Hognose
Egg Eating Snake
Everglades Racer
Bull Snake
Western Hognose
San Diego Gopher Snake
Sonoran Gopher Snake
Southern Pine Snake
Madagascar Giant hognose
Rufus Beaked Snake
Brown Water Snake

If I counted correctly, that's 80 species or sub-species of snakes. Pretty good diversity I think. I also didn't count venomous.

There has been a steady rise of specialized single species but different morphs. I don't believe the decline of one and the rise of another is coincidence. In particular, the ball python morphs. While there certainly is a lot of diversity in ball pythons, they only account for a single species regardless of their colors and pattern. Many people are abandoning other species for these little money making gems.

I can think of one prominent breeder that works almost exclusively with ball pythons today who used to have a variety of other species: VPI. They had gotten out of all their giant pythons well before the ball morph craze hit because they were more in favor of working with smaller, more easily managed animals. Most of the "Big Name Breeders" are new to the trade/hobby/industry... whatever you want to call it. The ones who aren't new, still keep and breed what they have kept for years.

Without getting into a debate about breeding ethics, I would like to point out that having a wide variety of snakes does not appeal to everyone. Many people want something that is easy to keep, hearty, and attractive to them. I think (and I could be very wrong) that the number of people on this website that have only a few species of reptile out number those of us who have many species. I also estimate that of those people, the majority of species are more common... boas and balls primarily.

I feel that anyone interested in herps should educate themselves primarily about what they keep and strive to know as much as possible about their chosen species. I don't feel that the hobby will be poorer for having so many more people from so many diverse backgrounds that all keep common species.

Finally, I say, from my perspective, the hobby is NOT in a state of decline. Due to the internet, there is more knowledge about reptiles available to the average person than ever before. Without the internet, we couldn't even have this conversation, and people may not be exposed to new and different ideas about care. I see a recurring theme in these posts of "Things are Getting Worse." I submit to you that I am glad that we no longer keep every species in aquaria on gravel under a heat-lamp as it used to be done.

[JuliusSqueezer]

80 out of what? 6500 species? hmmm sorry but that's not diverse. Actually there are over 300 something species readily available If I remember correctly but that number has been tracked for several years and is on a steady decline. Of the 80 you found, how many of those are readily available by many breeders/dealers ya think? How many of those you found are people unloading their breeders to axe old projects to make way for new morph money makers?

Also, the average hobbiest having a bunch of one or a little of everything isn't the market. The market is what the average hobbiest has to choose from. That is what is dwindling down and being replaced by the morph craze.

[morti]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

80 out of what? 6500 species? hmmm sorry but that's not diverse. Actually there are over 300 something species readily available If I remember correctly but that number has been tracked for several years and is on a steady decline. Of the 80 you found, how many of those are readily available by many breeders/dealers ya think? How many of those you found are people unloading their breeders to axe old projects to make way for new morph money makers?

Also, the average hobbiest having a bunch of one or a little of everything isn't the market. The market is what the average hobbiest has to choose from. That is what is dwindling down and being replaced by the morph craze.

The 80 that I found were literally what has been posted so far today. I didn't go back any further than 3/22.

Sure, there are probably 6500 or so species of non-venomous snakes in the world, but were all 6500 available previously but not available today?

[JuliusSqueezer]

No but many more were once available than are now. It's declining. How far can it keep declining? All the way or close to it unless changes are made. People are starting to notice and complain at the lack of species diversity at the expos. Hopefully big dealers and breeders will take heed. The biggest problem is that people are still paying big bucks for the morphs so it tends to sidetrack them.

[morti]

I will admit... 2004 at Daytona, it seemed like nothing but a ball python fest. I was far from pleased. 2005 was a little better as far as diversity goes, 2006 rocked. I saw more Angolan pythons, for instance, than I was aware even existed! I even saw several animals that I had to actually ask what I was looking at.

[SoberGuy]

From Mr. Clark himself:

"The snake fed voluntarily in due time, and while it was thought to be too small to breed, it did so that fall. The heterozygous generation hatched in the spring of 1990. These snakes grew quickly, bred and laid eggs that hatched when they themselves were only 2 years old."

Breeding when not old enough or big enough? Not good for the animals, and all because it's a nifty new morph...

[natas]

This is the way I see it. The market is flooded with ball python morphs. 6 years ago is was flooded with Burmese Python morphs. The market in 5 more years will be flooded with whatever the new morph is at the time.

However, I see no difference personally in the abundance of other types of Reptiles...in fact I seem to see more BCI, BCC and ETB and ATB then I did 5 years ago. This could mean a surge in the boa field...who knows.

I think what we are actually observing is this:
Shows are larger, a higher % of the shows consist of Ball Python morphs.
The same amount of "other" reptiles are around, it just seems like less when compared to the ball pythons.

2000 Show example (just a example and not 100% accurate)
50-60% of the show was "Other" reptiles (200-250 animals)
40-50% of the show was Burm Morphs (150-200 animals)

2006 Show examplpe (again just a example, no real data)
10% of the show was "Other" reptiles (200-250 animals)
50% of the show was Ball Python morphs (1000 animals)
40% of the show was Retic and Burm morphs (900 animals)

I maybe way off, but I think this could give us a idea of what is happening.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Shane? Are you making up statistics? tsk tsk

Please read the study that this fellow obviously devoted a great deal of time keeping up with for several years. I brought this up in the other thread about this debate but I doubt that many people read it.

Section 1 - Introduction


If you don't want to read it all, here is the important part to consider.

In 2007 I located 362 dealers as compared with 365 last year - essentially the same number. As always, I would caution that this number is certainly an underestimate of the number of people breeding and/or selling snakes as any trip to a "herp show" will prove. Herpetoculture remains a popular hobby and there are numerous people, like myself, who sell animals they have bred but are not formally present anywhere as dealers. This list continues to indicate a decline in the number of different species/subspecies of animals being offered. The current List shows 260 species and subspecies of non- (dangerously) venomous snakes. This compares with 272 last year and 294 in 1999. The variety of different species and subspecies of snakes being offered seems to be declining as dealers concentrate on an ever smaller number of popular species - especially those with various color and pattern varieties.

While it's not declined to total nothing but ball morphs and other morphs, the trend is noticable. And once again, it also doesn't account for available species that are very thinly available and subject to become not available at any given time due to lack of vendor.

[natas]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Shane? Are you making up statistics?

If you look at the thread I say that its not accurate. This is just simple observation from my point of view here in Texas.

I was just trying to say that the market is flooded with morphs, but from my observation here local in Dallas the same odd ball species are still available and that the market overall is growing (mainly morphs) but sadly it looks like the odd ball species are not.

[natas]

I also think that the market for the odd ball species is not growing because the Odd ball breeders are doing things the way they always do. Point being that they limit inbreeding almost 100% while the morph guys don't let that really get in the way (not all, but in general). I rather not go to far into the inbreeding portion of this. We need to reserve that for the proper thread

[B25Wolfpack]

This is my first year breeding morphs , i started this year with pastels and i have a spider,albino and pinstripe waiting in the wings it is a fun project for me and i dont want to get rich doing this. Yes getting rich sounds good but after seeing first hand how some of the "big breeders" act and treat the animals they work with is crazy. I think to them quantity is better than quality. so my 2 cents is money,greed and the lack of quality is ruining the market not morphs themselves. Kinda hard to get my point across but there are some breeders who breed for themselves and not for others to buy on KS.

[natas]

Originally Posted by thomasboxertko

This is my first year breeding morphs , i started this year with pastels and i have a spider,albino and pinstripe waiting in the wings it is a fun project for me and i dont want to get rich doing this. Yes getting rich sounds good but after seeing first hand how some of the "big breeders" act and treat the animals they work with is crazy. I think to them quantity is better than quality. so my 2 cents is money,greed and the lack of quality is ruining the market not morphs themselves. Kinda hard to get my point across but there are some breeders who breed for themselves and not for others to buy on KS.

Thats actually a really good point thomasboxertko. When I first bought my Salmon male 6 years ago I bought it because I wanted to see first hand how the genetics work. I was not in it to make money at all, but to just see it in action. There was something about seeing my snake breed a female and get the results I was hoping for.

Some of us have that "geek" drive to want to experience things first hand and I think that some of you out there breed morphs for that reason. Just like some of you breed reptiles in general, or rare species

[SoberGuy]

There are responsible breeders, and there are those that do so unethically. I know this touches on a few of the debates going, so I'll try to keep it pertinent.

The responsible breeders are great. Morphs with them I have no problem with.

However, the irresponsible breeders create the problem. I'd wager those that practice less than ethical procedures are those that breed on a much larger scale, therefore more.....compromised animals reach the market than those that are perfectly healthy. On this basis alone, it is harmful to the hobby. I think most people (not all, most) see a high dollar snake morph and also see dollar signs. "If he can sell it for $10,000, then so can I!" And we get people powerfeeding and breeding at an early age. While Bob Clark didn't admit to powerfeeding, it's hard to imagine breeding early without doing the former as well. Eh, take what you will.

So is a market flooding of morphs really harmful to the hobby itself? Granted we have some animals that aren't as healthy, but is that really killing the hobby?

I think what I'll be doing here is tossing a few ideas, basically food for thought. I love to debate, and I usually debate whichever side of the topic I feel like, not necessarily what I believe. I do it more for fun than conviction.

So, back to the point. First, let's look at the argument that morphs attract new people to the hobby. Without any kind of scientific study, you'll have to consider this for yourself. I can see how it may have a minor influence in getting new people in to the hobby. I think the bigger influence with morphs, as far as this subject goes, is that it attracts more people to other species. Maybe someone has a ball, doesn't care for corns, but sees a hypo corn, or a lavendar, or whatever, and decides to start getting into other species. Personally, I think that's great. Let's get people interested in other species and get some more diverse experience and knowledge. What's wrong with that?

Well, some morphs have some problems. Let's take spider balls for example. Say someone has a corn, see a spider, and picks one up because it's different and cool. Now we have someone, possibly new to the hobby, or newer to the hobby, new to the species, maybe hasn't done all the homework, and thinks that head twitching or whatever it's called is normal. Then they get a boa. The the ball dies. A tragedy, but hey, dogs and cats die and we don't get necropsies for them. So, now we've got a boa and a corn. Now the boa starts doing the same crazy stuff the ball did, and we don't know any better, so we ignore it. We go off to college (cause we're young, or we can go wherever if we're older), and we give the boa to a friend who has a few boas, or a few whatever boids. Turns out the boa had IBD, and we just ruined a collection. Impossible? I don't really think so.

Perhaps we wouldn't spread IBD like wildfire, but surely symptoms would be ignored by people who think it's normal behavior because their spider does it. Or maybe we won't encounter IBD at all, but certainly wouldn't recognize neurological problems.

Are morphs really killing the availability of other species? I don't really think so. I think they are tougher to find, as breeders of odd species probably do so with more ethics, meaning they produce far fewer numbers than the morph guys. Have the number of (insert species here) really declined in the last 10 years? I doubt it. Perhaps they make up a smaller percentage of what's available due to the flooding of morphs, but that's not exactly wiping it out of captivity.

Or is it? Take a look at those darn carpet pythons. I'm no expert with them, so I'm sure someone will correct me. But I think it's pretty rough to get a pure coastal, cause everything's a dang morph (or hybrid? I'd really hate to drag that into this.). But I think this is a great example of how crappy breeding and a desire for something different has practically wiped out an amazing species, or sub species. I'm sure someone will come in with big latin names and clear that all up nicely. Thanks in advance.

It's not a hard stretch to see that happening to other species. I wouldn't be too surprised to see BCI start dropping in numbers. We're seeing a bigger interest in locale specific BCC, and then with the addition of Bluefields, I think that BCI will slowly start to take up a much smaller share of the constrictor market. It won't fade away or die off, but it will probably become a little less popular. Same with normal burms, since everyone wants a jungle or lavendar or albino or whatever they come in. Not too many normals floating around. (Which I think is great, there's not much need for something that huge, and I think they are WAY overbred and WAY oversold. Not to mention ugly as sin.)

So, is it wholly bad? I don't think so. Is it doing more harm than good? I do think so.