Should we breed albinos? V1.0

[natas]

This is version 1 of the debate "Should we breed albinos?". What this thread is not is a place to come and insult, mock, degrade or put down members for their views. Engage the debate in the spirit in which it is meant to be debated.

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Now, have fun and educate the world of your views!!

[TongueFlick]

Well, here we go.
IMHO, I think we should cease the breeding of albinos, simply because they are BORN with all sorts of problems.... The most common and affecting two seem to be bad sight and the tendency for sunburn. I am simply against breeding these reptiles, not because I dislike them, but because they need care that is much more complex than that of "normals", and sometimes people just are not mature enough or can't provide proper care for an animal that is potentuialy already "sick".
That's just my opinion, I'm anxious to see what others have to say.

[danktat]

In my opinion I don't believe the breeding of albinos should be stopped just because some are not responsible enough to care for them properly. I am not for bannishment of most things due to the irresponsibilities of those who participate. There is absolutely a place in the herping culture for animals with albinism. There are also many who do care for their pets properly and lovingly.

What I am opposed to is the complete disregard for some of the breeding practices that a few (not all) breeders participate in just to turn a quick buck on the trendiness of animals that are "different". I am also not foolish enough to believe that the breeding of albino animals will have any quick or easy solution to the negligent breeding practices that are prevelant today. What we as consumers can do is insist that the breeders who produce this type of animal use a varied stock for parents, we won't purchase the sickly ones (calling it a rescue when it will just encourage the production of more sickly animals because they will eventually sell), and that we will look as deeply as we can into the way the breeders we purchase from conduct thier breeding trials.

I know that puts all the "work" on us as the consumer but that is the best way to promote "healthy" breeding for the albinism trait. If you insist before you buy then the breeders will be more likely to cater to what you are willing to pay for. If you are willing to pay for a sick, or one eyed, or kinked-spined albino then YES they will continue to produce them. Have the breeders get stuck with a bunch of animals they can't sell and perhaps they will shore up those breeding practices to allow for the healthiest albinos possible. For me that is a better alternative than just cutting out the breeding altogether. People who buy albinos as pets (not just breeding stock) love thier animals just as much as one would love any naturally occouring colored or patterned snake. I don't believe that we as a community should deny them that beloved pet because they "could" have health issues.

JMO

[danktat]

P.S. I find it hard to discuss this any further without crossing over into the inbreeding/linebreeding thread as the two seem to be too tightly interwoven to separate.

[deadliestformula]

Some common problems with albinism are:
1. lowered visual ability
2. increased sensitivity to sunlight ie sunburns
3. increased visability to predators/failure to blend in

These can easily be overcome with good husbandry.
1. Do not feed live prey, as the snake will not be able to see well enough to protect itself. Do not allow for situations where the snakes visual imparements will be an issue

2. Use CHE's and ambient room lighting. Avoid bright lights, and Avoid the sunlight (for skin concerns) since snakes do not need the sunlight anyway.

3. Well honestly, this isn't an issue with captive animals anyway.


As far as any claims about one-eyed albino's, etc. That boils down to unfit breeding practices. And has a place for mention in another thread.

[TongueFlick]

Originally Posted by deadliestformula

Some common problems with albinism are:
1. lowered visual ability
2. increased sensitivity to sunlight ie sunburns
3. increased visability to predators/failure to blend in
These can easily be overcome with good husbandry.
1. Do not feed live prey, as the snake will not be able to see well enough to protect itself. Do not allow for situations where the snakes visual imparements will be an issue
2. Use CHE's and ambient room lighting. Avoid bright lights, and Avoid the sunlight (for skin concerns) since snakes do not need the sunlight anyway.
3. Well honestly, this isn't an issue with captive animals anyway.
As far as any claims about one-eyed albino's, etc. That boils down to unfit breeding practices. And has a place for mention in another thread.

Ah, yes. I DO think, however, that those who really are ready to make the commitment... I see nothing wrong with that. What I dislike is seeing someone buy an albino for their first snake, and use a basic snake caresheet for the "proper" instructions, because they think it's just a white snake.

[sarecho7280]

i have an albino brother and he has horrible eyesight, which is probably more common with albinism than people realize. but, concerning snakes in captivity, that's not a big deal. most snakes don't have great eyesight anyway and motion will be just as visible, just not as detailed. they'll still smell the food and react to motion.

my brother is more sensitive to sunlight (both uva and uvb rays) but still, the chance of a snake getting a sunburn from a heat bulb is pretty much nonexistent.

i'm not sure albino snakes KNOW they're albino lol. i doubt it created extra stress on them to hide in that perfect spot.

the problem i have with it is that they're unique and there are too many impulse buys when uniqueness is concerned, and that leads to homeless snakes with multiple homes. also, those eye problems can be compounded when bred with another albino and that can lead to missing eyes, complete blindness, etc. that is a bit harsh for the sake of being pretty. that is making a living animal your canvas at the expense of its quality of life

[JuliusSqueezer]

albinism is a disease. It comes with a price far greater than just eye and skin problems. Albino reptiles develop slower than normals so when there is a mixed litter of albino and normal appearing offspring, the normals when ready to come out do so and drag along anything else with it. This is likely the key to the enormous amount of premature albino births from livebearing animals. I don't believe it's ethical to breed for any trait that IS a disease or otherwise comes with ANY health concerns.

[sarecho7280]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

albinism is a disease. It comes with a price far greater than just eye and skin problems. Albino reptiles develop slower than normals so when there is a mixed litter of albino and normal appearing offspring, the normals when ready to come out do so and drag along anything else with it. This is likely the key to the enormous amount of premature albino births from livebearing animals. I don't believe it's ethical to breed for any trait that IS a disease or otherwise comes with ANY health concerns.

those albino reptiles don't look nearly as uncomfortable as shar-peis, pekingnese, or teacup chihuahuas do. they all require special treatment.

according to the ethical guidelines this country practices, breeding for albinism is nothing.

[natas]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

albinism is a disease. It comes with a price far greater than just eye and skin problems. Albino reptiles develop slower than normals so when there is a mixed litter of albino and normal appearing offspring, the normals when ready to come out do so and drag along anything else with it. This is likely the key to the enormous amount of premature albino births from livebearing animals. I don't believe it's ethical to breed for any trait that IS a disease or otherwise comes with ANY health concerns.

I am not questioning this Julius because I truthfully have no idea, but is there any proof about this? Any articles you can point us to on albinos and how it affects growth...reptiles or any type of animal

[momakat]

Originally Posted by megascops-osio

but still, the chance of a snake getting a sunburn from a heat bulb is pretty much nonexistent.

It would not be called a sunburn - but a snake can definitely get burned from a heat bulb - even a normal snake can - from ignorant owners. Rex has scars along most of his back from burns from a heat lamp and not being provided a hide by his first owners. He was dropped off at the pet shop where I got him and he had been given excellent care. I will have to see if I can find some old pics and get some new pics so you can see the difference.

Bottom line - while ignorance is not an excuse, if a regular BP can suffer burns with scaring so bad that there is excess scar tissue along most of his spine . . . how much worse would it have been for an albino whose skin is more sensitive?

[JuliusSqueezer]

Albinos don't absorb heat as well as pigmented animals. Developing reptile embryos require absorbtion of heat to develop. This is why hotter incubation means shorter incubation. This is well known and documented. The lack of ability to absorb heat also causes adult female albinos to have great difficulty conceiving and / or incubating embryos. Egg layers have a definate advantage.

[SoundUnsleep]

Okay, boys and girls: I'm gonna forward this thread to my Mom and let her be the judge. Since she is albino (although not severe), I'm certain she'll be interested to know that I shouldn't exist!!!
Albinism is not a "disease" perse. It's an autosomal recessive genetic defect that affects the metabolism insofar as that not enough melanin is being produced.
There are several aspects of albinism that certainly limit those having it (including snakes). It, however, does not decrease quality of life or life expectancy. A human with albinism commonly relies on tinted eye glasses to improve vision and prevent too much light from entering the eye. Further, due to a defect in the pigmentation albinos are more prone to developing skin cancer, when exposed to UV rays. Another problem with too much light, that I know my Mom has: She gets headaches, when she doesn't wear tinted glasses when gardening, etc. (the light causes her eye nerves to get "shaky").
As to albino snakes: IMO it's okay to breed them, as long as the keeper that buys them, knows how to care for them (indirect light source or use of tinted plexi glass around enclosure, etc.).

[natas]

I think it really depends on how one defines Disease. We all have genetic defects so does that mean we are all diseased?

If little Johnny decides to go smoke a cig and becomes addicted is his addiction a "disease"? I hear people calling a addiction to alcohol a disease...to me thats just weird. Thats like calling my saturday trip to my favorite place to eat a disease, I do it every saturday and have been for 3 years.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Do a google search on " albinism disease" and you will see right away that "Medical Science" agrees with me. It's a disease.

From emedicine.com:

You are in: eMedicine Specialties > Dermatology > Diseases Of Pigmentation

Albinism
Last Updated: August 22, 2005
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Synonyms and related keywords: oculocutaneous albinism, oculocutaneous albinism type 1, oculocutaneous albinism type 2, oculocutaneous albinism type 3, OCA, OCA type 1, OCA type 2, OCA type 3, OCA type 4, ocular albinism, OA, Chediak-Higashi syndrome, CHS, Hermansky-Pudlak syndrome, HPS, Griscelli Syndrome, GS, congenital hypopigmentary disease

CHS and HPS also manifest with extrapigmentary defects consisting of leukocyte, platelet, and reticular cell dysfunction. GS can also manifest with immunodeficiency and neurologic defects.

Pathophysiology: These diseases present with a generalized complete or partial loss in pigmentation of the skin and the hair. Mutations in genes that regulate the multistep process of melanin synthesis and distribution by the melanocyte are the basis for these diseases.

Frequency:

* Internationally: The approximate incidences of these diseases are as follows:

o OCA type 1 - One case per 40,000 population

o OCA type 2 - One case per 15,000 population

o OCA type 3 - Unknown

o OCA type 4 - Rare, except in Japan, where 24% of individuals with OCA have this form

o OA - One case per 50,000 population

o CHS - Extremely rare

o HPS - Rare, except in Puerto Rico, where frequency is 1 case per 1800 population

o GS - Extremely rare

Mortality/Morbidity:

* OCA types 1, 2, 3, and 4 and OA are not associated with mortality and/or morbidity outside of cutaneous sensitivity to solar irradiation and the associated visual defects described below (see Physical).

* Children with CHS manifest easy bruising, mucosal bleeding, epistaxis and petechiae, recurrent infections primarily involving the respiratory system, and neutropenia. Approximately 85% of individuals with CHS enter an accelerated phase, including fever; anemia; neutropenia; and, occasionally, thrombocytopenia, hepatosplenomegaly, lymphadenopathy, and jaundice. Neurologic problems are variable in CHS and include a peripheral and cranial neuropathy, autonomic dysfunction, weakness and sensory deficits, loss of deep tendon reflexes, clumsiness with a wide-based gait, seizures, and decreased motor nerve conduction velocities. Death usually occurs in the first decade from infection, bleeding, or development of the accelerated phase.

* Individuals with HPS manifest a bleeding diathesis resulting from a platelet storage pool deficiency. They also develop a ceroid storage disease in which a ceroid-lipofuscin material accumulates in various organ systems, resulting in pulmonary fibrosis, granulomatous colitis, gingivitis, kidney failure, and cardiomyopathy. Pulmonary fibrosis usually proves fatal in the fourth or fifth decade of life.

* Most individuals with GS develop chronic infections resulting from severe immunodeficiency that can be fatal within the first decade of life.

Race: All races appear to be equally affected by the associated mutations. However, OCA type 2 is reportedly more common among Africans and African Americans (1 case per 10,000 population) than in whites (1 case per 36,000 population). In addition, OCA type 3 has only been genetically confirmed in African and African American individuals.

Sex: The incidence of these albino diseases is equal for men and women.

Age: All of these diseases present in neonates. CHS consists of an accelerated phase that occurs years to decades after birth.

I wouldn't go so far to call this Disease ONLY a skin and eye issue. While often this is indeed the case with albino humans, there are deadly syndromes, heart disease, cancers etc that are also common with various types of albinism

Complications:

* Complications of OCA type 1 include photophobia, severe-to-moderate reduced visual acuity, and nystagmus. The ocular complications in OCA type 2, OCA type 3, and OCA type 4 are similar to those in OCA type 1, but, in OCA type 3, they are not as severe.

* Complications of CHS include easy bruising, mucosal bleeding, epistaxis and petechiae, recurrent infections primarily involving the respiratory system, and neutropenia. In the accelerated phase, fever; anemia; neutropenia; and, occasionally, thrombocytopenia, hepatosplenomegaly, lymphadenopathy, and jaundice may occur. Neurologic problems in CHS may include a peripheral and cranial neuropathy, autonomic dysfunction, weakness and sensory deficits, loss of deep tendon reflexes, clumsiness with a wide-based gait, seizures, and decreased motor nerve conduction velocities.

* Long-term complications of HPS include pulmonary fibrosis, granulomatous colitis, gingivitis, and kidney failure.

Keep in mind that medical science for humans is lightyears ahead of herp medicine and always will be. All we really know is what we see and what I see all too often is that a whole lot of sickly premature albinos that don't make it have to happen for one or two that are strong enough to stick it out....and even still, at what quality of life and for what purpose other than because some human's twisted view on what's cool?

Soundunsleep...Who ever said you shouldn't exist? Just because your mom is albino doesn't mean she can't or shouldn't have kids. It takes the genes from both parents to make albino babies. I do think it would have been pretty rotten had she gone out seeking an albino mate in hopes of inflicting her kids with the same disease. You are het for albino too and though there's always a very small chance that you could have an albino baby with an unsuspecting fellow het...Please tell me you wouldn't go seeking an albino or het albino on purpose to have babies with.

[bcfos1]

If you take into consideration the stand the AKC took on albino doberman's you can maybe see another side of it besides the coolness factor. The AKC will not register (or use to not 4 years back) an albino doberman. In fact the offspring of the original albino doberman "Sheba" were all registered (showing normal traits only) with a "Z" prefix in their registration number. This was done so people knew the potential health problems these dogs brought with them such as hypersensitivity to light, blindness, and various skin conditions so hopefully they wouldn't ever be bred. Some breeders either cull off offspring showing this albino trait, yet others sell them for profit. It all boils down to the ethics of each breeder.

As for snakes and the albino trait. I agree it isn't a highly desired trait if one is interested in the health of the animal, but I will say if someone is well educated on the possible health issues and willing to provide proper care for it than having one as a pet isn't that bad. I just wouldn't go so far as to breed it though.

And if you look at albinoism in the wild you never or rarely see albino reptiles in the wild. They don't blend in as well as their normal siblings and make for an easy meal for a predator. Same for other animals also. When was the last time you saw an albino deer or squirrel? They just stand out like a sore thumb and have a huge disadvantage in the wild.

[natas]

Personally the only issue I see with the albino gene in boas is the one-eye problems. Past that I really don't see it being a huge deal because with proper care issues I would think will be minimal.

With a albino reptile that requires UV I have major issues with. Any animal that requires UV to live but will go blind from it is just wrong.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Ahhh but are you judging this on all albino boas born or just the ones "healthy" enough to survive the neonatal days and make it to market. I think if more people got to see the runt piles that never make it up for sale, they would feel a little worse about the whole market.

[natas]

No, what I am saying is the minute the first boa showed up missing a eye the breeding should of stopped there once the trend was confirmed.

And I really don't know what the true numbers are on runt and prematures, and I doubt you know as well. There is no way for us to know without inspecting every birthing in person.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Yeah but knowing that it's impossible to see every birthing firsthand ...we have to judge by what we do see. The prevalence is obvious. Once I see something 30 or 40 times, I tend to start believing what I see.