Should we breed albinos? V1.0

[boaterr]

There are so many problems with albinos I doubt I have the text space to list them all . Just give me a normal of any type of snake (preferably an Anaconda or Retic) and I will be the happiest man alive.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

I believe this should go further than albinos. I believe the bat eaters, dwarf retcs and "designer" reptiles should all be kept from the greedy profession of the reptile world. .

I can certainly agree with you about “bateaters” and the like. But I would never put dwarf retics in the same category. Dwarf Retics are not hybrids, they are locales from various islands. If memory serves, all the dwarfs fall under the subspecies of P r jampeanus. So I see no difference between keeping P r reticulatus and jampeansus or saputrai. Your mainland P r reticulatus ssp has been morphed out and mutted much more than any of the dwarf varieties. Even the so called “super dwarf” is actually a locale, not a morph. Granted, many breeders are breeding P r reticulates with the dwarf locales to get smaller morphs. But putting Dwarf Retics in the same category as hybrids and morphs just doesn’t make any sense. it is like condemning someone for breeding Nicaraguan Boas rather than Guyanan because they are smaller.

[razeraze]

Thanks BW, I posted this far before I researched taxonomy. How ever I do not like the way dwarfs are being sold, as smaller more manageable retics. They should be sold as Jampeas much like boas are sold by locality (Hog island, Suriname). And I hope breeders are not trying to find smaller and smaller sexually mature retics to breed the smallest type of dwarfs possible. This constant trying to selectively breed an ideal reptile for the masses, is idiotic in my opinion. There are plenty of snakes that reach the same size as dwarf retics that are being sold, there is no sense in trying to selectively breed smaller retics, by mixing localities or species.

[Conners]

Originally Posted by torlax

I'm going to keep my argument as short as i can.No, we should not breed albino's for they almost always will end up with problems, sometimes the problems are not noticeable, but end up showing up. Albino snakes don't have any camo to hide if they were in the wild, yes they may look cool, but they are very sensitive and again, almost always have a problem with their organs or the way they look.

Hi Torlax,
You make your view clear here, but I'd like to ask, can you offer evidence to support this viewpoint? After all saying that albinos "almost always" end up with problems is a big claim. You go on to talk about issues with organs and other unobservable problems that show up eventually. What are these problems? The thing is, I'm not aware of any evidence to back up your argument here.
It's quite possible that alleles for amelanism will go hand in hand with other mutations, but in that case, what are these other mutations and what characteristic do they code for? I don't think we can be against the idea of breeding for albinism just because it feels wrong or because humans with albinism are popularly believed to be less healthy. I'm not saying that this is what your argument boils down to, but it's the kind of thing I sometimes hear other people say.
There's also the question of whether the kind of problems you speculate about could be the result of line breeding for too many generations rather than directly a result of being Tyronsinase negative.
The argument about the vulnerability of albino animals in the wild isn't really relevant, because no one should be releasing captive bred snakes of any type into the wild unless as part of a programme approved by the relevant government. It would be almost as irresponsible to release a normal-looking snake into the wild, particularly if you didn't know exactly where its ancestors were collected from.
A breeder has a lot of responsibilities, but selective breeding a trait that occurs at a consistent rate among wild animals is not frankenstein science, and I have never seen any convincing arguments against breeding snakes that display color and pattern mutations.

[boaterr]

Originally Posted by Conners

Hi Torlax,
You make your view clear here, but I'd like to ask, can you offer evidence to support this viewpoint? After all saying that albinos "almost always" end up with problems is a big claim. You go on to talk about issues with organs and other unobservable problems that show up eventually. What are these problems? The thing is, I'm not aware of any evidence to back up your argument here.
It's quite possible that alleles for amelanism will go hand in hand with other mutations, but in that case, what are these other mutations and what characteristic do they code for? I don't think we can be against the idea of breeding for albinism just because it feels wrong or because humans with albinism are popularly believed to be less healthy. I'm not saying that this is what your argument boils down to, but it's the kind of thing I sometimes hear other people say.
There's also the question of whether the kind of problems you speculate about could be the result of line breeding for too many generations rather than directly a result of being Tyronsinase negative.
The argument about the vulnerability of albino animals in the wild isn't really relevant, because no one should be releasing captive bred snakes of any type into the wild unless as part of a programme approved by the relevant government. It would be almost as irresponsible to release a normal-looking snake into the wild, particularly if you didn't know exactly where its ancestors were collected from.
A breeder has a lot of responsibilities, but selective breeding a trait that occurs at a consistent rate among wild animals is not frankenstein science, and I have never seen any convincing arguments against breeding snakes that display color and pattern mutations.

So do you have any evidence that albinos are not often plagued with problems?

[morti]

Originally Posted by boaterr

So do you have any evidence that albinos are not often plagued with problems?

Is it possible to show evidence for a lack of a problem?

In any good debate (or trial), the burden of proof is on the accuser.

So can you show me proof that more albinos suffer from negative symptoms than non-albinos?

The only proof I have is from personal experience. In my personal experience, I have never witnessed first hand an albino snake that showed any signs or symptoms of any health problem that was not common to the species.

Have you? Can you prove it to me?

[Conners]

Originally Posted by boaterr

So do you have any evidence that albinos are not often plagued with problems?

Plenty of anecdotal from my own experience and those of other keepers.

But the burden of proof is surely on the person making the claim and being asked to defend it.

Otherwise it's like someone claiming he was abducted by aliens and when asked if he can prove it responding, "Can you prove I wasn't?!"

[boaterr]

Originally Posted by Conners

Plenty of anecdotal from my own experience and those of other keepers.
But the burden of proof is surely on the person making the claim and being asked to defend it.
Otherwise it's like someone claiming he was abducted by aliens and when asked if he can prove it responding, "Can you prove I wasn't?!"

You also made a claim so can you put up any information? If you cannot put up any facts than you sound like someone who is also making claims without any evidence to back it up.

Since you have been in the hobby for a while I know you are aware of the fact that inbreeding and albinos go together hand in hand, since it is the main method used to prove traits and build vibrant colors. I can provide lots of examples if needed.

[BWSmith]

Actually Boaterr, they got you on that one. The claim that there are no problems cannot be qualified so the proof needs to be that there ARE problems.

However, if memory serves, numerous examples and evidence to support the fact that many albinos are genetically deficient and often have eye problems has already been submitted and not rebuked. So Conner's original argument has already been addressed beyond reproach and made his position invalid.