Should we breed albinos? V1.0

[boaterr]

There are so many problems with albinos I doubt I have the text space to list them all . Just give me a normal of any type of snake (preferably an Anaconda or Retic) and I will be the happiest man alive.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by razeraze

I believe this should go further than albinos. I believe the bat eaters, dwarf retcs and "designer" reptiles should all be kept from the greedy profession of the reptile world. .

I can certainly agree with you about “bateaters” and the like. But I would never put dwarf retics in the same category. Dwarf Retics are not hybrids, they are locales from various islands. If memory serves, all the dwarfs fall under the subspecies of P r jampeanus. So I see no difference between keeping P r reticulatus and jampeansus or saputrai. Your mainland P r reticulatus ssp has been morphed out and mutted much more than any of the dwarf varieties. Even the so called “super dwarf” is actually a locale, not a morph. Granted, many breeders are breeding P r reticulates with the dwarf locales to get smaller morphs. But putting Dwarf Retics in the same category as hybrids and morphs just doesn’t make any sense. it is like condemning someone for breeding Nicaraguan Boas rather than Guyanan because they are smaller.

[razeraze]

Thanks BW, I posted this far before I researched taxonomy. How ever I do not like the way dwarfs are being sold, as smaller more manageable retics. They should be sold as Jampeas much like boas are sold by locality (Hog island, Suriname). And I hope breeders are not trying to find smaller and smaller sexually mature retics to breed the smallest type of dwarfs possible. This constant trying to selectively breed an ideal reptile for the masses, is idiotic in my opinion. There are plenty of snakes that reach the same size as dwarf retics that are being sold, there is no sense in trying to selectively breed smaller retics, by mixing localities or species.

[Conners]

Originally Posted by torlax

I'm going to keep my argument as short as i can.No, we should not breed albino's for they almost always will end up with problems, sometimes the problems are not noticeable, but end up showing up. Albino snakes don't have any camo to hide if they were in the wild, yes they may look cool, but they are very sensitive and again, almost always have a problem with their organs or the way they look.

Hi Torlax,
You make your view clear here, but I'd like to ask, can you offer evidence to support this viewpoint? After all saying that albinos "almost always" end up with problems is a big claim. You go on to talk about issues with organs and other unobservable problems that show up eventually. What are these problems? The thing is, I'm not aware of any evidence to back up your argument here.
It's quite possible that alleles for amelanism will go hand in hand with other mutations, but in that case, what are these other mutations and what characteristic do they code for? I don't think we can be against the idea of breeding for albinism just because it feels wrong or because humans with albinism are popularly believed to be less healthy. I'm not saying that this is what your argument boils down to, but it's the kind of thing I sometimes hear other people say.
There's also the question of whether the kind of problems you speculate about could be the result of line breeding for too many generations rather than directly a result of being Tyronsinase negative.
The argument about the vulnerability of albino animals in the wild isn't really relevant, because no one should be releasing captive bred snakes of any type into the wild unless as part of a programme approved by the relevant government. It would be almost as irresponsible to release a normal-looking snake into the wild, particularly if you didn't know exactly where its ancestors were collected from.
A breeder has a lot of responsibilities, but selective breeding a trait that occurs at a consistent rate among wild animals is not frankenstein science, and I have never seen any convincing arguments against breeding snakes that display color and pattern mutations.

[boaterr]

Originally Posted by Conners

Hi Torlax,
You make your view clear here, but I'd like to ask, can you offer evidence to support this viewpoint? After all saying that albinos "almost always" end up with problems is a big claim. You go on to talk about issues with organs and other unobservable problems that show up eventually. What are these problems? The thing is, I'm not aware of any evidence to back up your argument here.
It's quite possible that alleles for amelanism will go hand in hand with other mutations, but in that case, what are these other mutations and what characteristic do they code for? I don't think we can be against the idea of breeding for albinism just because it feels wrong or because humans with albinism are popularly believed to be less healthy. I'm not saying that this is what your argument boils down to, but it's the kind of thing I sometimes hear other people say.
There's also the question of whether the kind of problems you speculate about could be the result of line breeding for too many generations rather than directly a result of being Tyronsinase negative.
The argument about the vulnerability of albino animals in the wild isn't really relevant, because no one should be releasing captive bred snakes of any type into the wild unless as part of a programme approved by the relevant government. It would be almost as irresponsible to release a normal-looking snake into the wild, particularly if you didn't know exactly where its ancestors were collected from.
A breeder has a lot of responsibilities, but selective breeding a trait that occurs at a consistent rate among wild animals is not frankenstein science, and I have never seen any convincing arguments against breeding snakes that display color and pattern mutations.

So do you have any evidence that albinos are not often plagued with problems?

[morti]

Originally Posted by boaterr

So do you have any evidence that albinos are not often plagued with problems?

Is it possible to show evidence for a lack of a problem?

In any good debate (or trial), the burden of proof is on the accuser.

So can you show me proof that more albinos suffer from negative symptoms than non-albinos?

The only proof I have is from personal experience. In my personal experience, I have never witnessed first hand an albino snake that showed any signs or symptoms of any health problem that was not common to the species.

Have you? Can you prove it to me?

[Conners]

Originally Posted by boaterr

So do you have any evidence that albinos are not often plagued with problems?

Plenty of anecdotal from my own experience and those of other keepers.

But the burden of proof is surely on the person making the claim and being asked to defend it.

Otherwise it's like someone claiming he was abducted by aliens and when asked if he can prove it responding, "Can you prove I wasn't?!"

[boaterr]

Originally Posted by Conners

Plenty of anecdotal from my own experience and those of other keepers.
But the burden of proof is surely on the person making the claim and being asked to defend it.
Otherwise it's like someone claiming he was abducted by aliens and when asked if he can prove it responding, "Can you prove I wasn't?!"

You also made a claim so can you put up any information? If you cannot put up any facts than you sound like someone who is also making claims without any evidence to back it up.

Since you have been in the hobby for a while I know you are aware of the fact that inbreeding and albinos go together hand in hand, since it is the main method used to prove traits and build vibrant colors. I can provide lots of examples if needed.

[BWSmith]

Actually Boaterr, they got you on that one. The claim that there are no problems cannot be qualified so the proof needs to be that there ARE problems.

However, if memory serves, numerous examples and evidence to support the fact that many albinos are genetically deficient and often have eye problems has already been submitted and not rebuked. So Conner's original argument has already been addressed beyond reproach and made his position invalid.

[morti]

Originally Posted by boaterr

You also made a claim so can you put up any information? If you cannot put up any facts than you sound like someone who is also making claims without any evidence to back it up.
Since you have been in the hobby for a while I know you are aware of the fact that inbreeding and albinos go together hand in hand, since it is the main method used to prove traits and build vibrant colors. I can provide lots of examples if needed.

This is not a debate about problems related to inbreeding. It is a debate about problems related to breeding albinos.

If you want to debate about inbreeding, I suggest you do so in the inbreeding debate thread.

If you feel that the problem with albinos is people will inbreed them, that is precisely the same argument as saying we should not allow the sale of guns because people will shoot other people with them or that we should not sell fast cars because people will drive fast in them.

Just because some people do it wrong does not mean that no one is capable of doing it right.

Because of this huge flaw, that argument is invalid.

I feel that any potential problem with one-eyed albinos can be reduced or removed by careful breeding programs.

[boaterr]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

Actually Boaterr, they got you on that one. The claim that there are no problems cannot be qualified so the proof needs to be that there ARE problems.
However, if memory serves, numerous examples and evidence to support the fact that many albinos are genetically deficient and often have eye problems has already been submitted and not rebuked. So Conner's original argument has already been addressed beyond reproach and made his position invalid.

Fair point.
Lets look into albino boas. I could make all kind of accusations but the most telling facts are told by people that have been breeding morphs and albinos for years.

By Chris Gilbert who owns Gilbertboas.
Okay, start to dish out some of my acquired info.... (I'm bound to forget things and recall them later).


Jungles. First one in the US was actually a Super, but after that there was an issue getting Supers to live.

Leopards. I can speak from experience, do have digestive issues as babies, always under a year of age, usually younger. They have problems digesting hair. That's it. I've had 2 Rio Bravo line Sonorans, no problem. 1 Hypo from Russo, no problem. A 66% het Leopard, no problem. And my dad has 1.1 Tarahumara, no problem. They are all fed less than Colombians or any other BCI locale, however the Leopards are much more delicate. Feed rat pinks, and you're fine. No hair may result in slightly runny poop, but it won't tax the boa's digestive system. MOST breeders in the US with Leopards have NOT been able to get them to breed. This comes from improper raising, just as Trey mentioned. My guy is an '05 and did a great job with a 7' Orangetail Hypo this year! He's under 4' and under 2lbs! He has NEVER been fed anything larger than a weanling rat, and usually just large pups (eyes just open).

Kahl Albinos. Missing eyes, other eye problems. Large bellies in babies. Females having to be kept warmer when gravid than other boas (in ambient temp, don't cook them).

Sharp Albinos. Fertility issues in early males, seems to be rectified. Sharp Albinos seem better able to handle more food than other boas.

Bloods. Kinking, not sure if all have this issue. However myself, and 3 other breeders last year all with our first litters related to Blood stock had kinking in babies.

Motleys and Super Motleys. They have narrow heads. It is a fact, I have a Motley sitting right here and have seen 9 Supers IN PERSON with it. Those Supers covered both CA and Colombian Motleys.

Scoria. Don't know about the wobble syndrom. That rumor may have resulted because the first one ever, the Mocha boa, had IBD.

Blizzard. None have been born alive. Bad odds or??? The Type II Anerys and Albinos from the Blizzard line are some of the STRONGEST boas! Hybrid vigor.

Novelty mutations. Random freak boas are often infertile. One of the best examples would be Ralph Davis' Freak Snow.

Blacktail Nicaraguan. Sometimes labeled as Blacktail Anery, or Type II Anery incorrectly. These have not been able to be produced using "hets". Nothing really wrong, just genetic issues to inheritance. If you breed two together you WILL get a litter of them. However because you can't make more from "hets" you can't make designers.

Albino Suriname. None have bred successfully. Ironically all have been male, maybe infertile?? Could be the people working with them, not sure that any have been in experienced BCC breeder's hands.

Leucistic. Sworn to secrecy.

Albino Mexican. Eye issues, died. Could well have been an infection independent of the mutation because it died as an adult WC, and it was female so it had to be a few years old.

[Conners]

Originally Posted by boaterr

You also made a claim so can you put up any information? If you cannot put up any facts than you sound like someone who is also making claims without any evidence to back it up.
Since you have been in the hobby for a while I know you are aware of the fact that inbreeding and albinos go together hand in hand, since it is the main method used to prove traits and build vibrant colors. I can provide lots of examples if needed.

Hey boaterr,

Well, without wishing to get bogged down in the question of who posted what when, I didn't make any claims, beyond saying inter alia that "the argument about the vulnerability of albino animals in the wild isn't really relevant".

Torlax presented a clear and specific viewpoint, but he didn't supply any evidence to support it. He may well have such evidence but chose not to go into it in his post. I just invited him to show it to us.

You then asked me to supply evidence to show that albinos don't suffer problems. But we have missed a step.

[Conners]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

However, if memory serves, numerous examples and evidence to support the fact that many albinos are genetically deficient and often have eye problems has already been submitted and not rebuked. So Conner's original argument has already been addressed beyond reproach and made his position invalid.

Hey BW - well, as I have pointed out in the post above, I haven't presented any argument!

I just asked someone else to defend theirs.

There may well be reams of evidence to support the claim that albinos are genetically deficient - I've just asked if the chap who made the claim can provide any.

I can't see how my position has been made "invalid" on the basis of evidence I haven't seen and apparently no-one wants to show me!

[morti]

Originally Posted by boaterr

Kahl Albinos. Missing eyes, other eye problems. Large bellies in babies. Females having to be kept warmer when gravid than other boas (in ambient temp, don't cook them).
Sharp Albinos. Fertility issues in early males, seems to be rectified. Sharp Albinos seem better able to handle more food than other boas.

Since this continues to be a debate about albinos, I will touch those topics:

I have personally seen many normal boas with large bellies full of yolk. This is absolutely a factor of gestation period (largely out of the keepers control) and can happen to any boa.

As far as females having to be kept warmer, some breeders have shown better success with getting fertile litters when keeping female albinos warmer, but this is far from true when one is discussing a het to het breeding.

Again, the missing eye issues are not, in my opinion, something that just sort of comes with albinos. I feel that it is related to poor breeding practices. I feel that this can easily be corrected by outcrossing and culling.

Are there other problems that you wish to bring up?

[BWSmith]

Isn't the fact that they are butt ugly as adults enough?

[boaterr]

Originally Posted by Conners

Hey boaterr,
Well, without wishing to get bogged down in the question of who posted what when, I didn't make any claims, beyond saying inter alia that "the argument about the vulnerability of albino animals in the wild isn't really relevant".
Torlax presented a clear and specific viewpoint, but he didn't supply any evidence to support it. He may well have such evidence but chose not to go into it in his post. I just invited him to show it to us.
You then asked me to supply evidence to show that albinos don't suffer problems. But we have missed a step.

O ok. I was talking about when i asked "Did you have any evidence" and you replied

Originally Posted by Conners

Plenty of anecdotal from my own experience and those of other keepers.

I just wanted to hear what your experiences with albinos where. I forgot to add that the I have only experienced problems with albino boids not colubrids.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by Conners

Hey BW - well, as I have pointed out in the post above, I haven't presented any argument!

I just asked someone else to defend theirs.

There may well be reams of evidence to support the claim that albinos are genetically deficient - I've just asked if the chap who made the claim can provide any.

I can't see how my position has been made "invalid" on the basis of evidence I haven't seen and apparently no-one wants to show me!

As i stated, I THINK that evidence has been presented in this thread already. Asking to restate information is not all that reasonable. But the data has been presented over an over again in countless threads. It has been shown that there are ways to reduce the occurrences of these issues, but it is pretty obvious that they are inherent in the albino gene (at least in bids). This is not new information at all and it does not take much to verify the existence of the issues. Now I don't mind going back and reading this entire thread again, but if I find the information you keep saying noone gave you, I will be upset

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by morti

Again, the missing eye issues are not, in my opinion, something that just sort of comes with albinos. I feel that it is related to poor breeding practices. I feel that this can easily be corrected by outcrossing and culling.

All evidence supports that eye problems are inherent with the albino gene in boids. This is shown in boas, burms, and (apparently) retics. While the occurrences of these issues can be lessened by selective breeding and culling, it cannot be eliminated. To say that we can reduce these issues is valid, to say that they do not exist is faulty.

[morti]

Originally Posted by BWSmith

All evidence supports that eye problems are inherent with the albino gene in boids. This is shown in boas, burms, and (apparently) retics. While the occurrences of these issues can be lessened by selective breeding and culling, it cannot be eliminated. To say that we can reduce these issues is valid, to say that they do not exist is faulty.

I am not denying the existence of this problem... only denying that it is sufficient justification for why herpers in general should not breed albinos.

[BWSmith]

Originally Posted by morti

I am not denying the existence of this problem... only denying that it is sufficient justification for why herpers in general should not breed albinos.

But shouldn't we all strive to produce the healthiest animals possible? This would include not producing animals that have known and recurring issues.