Should we breed albinos? V1.0

[natas]

I am a little confused about that to. If this theory were to hold true then Hypos would form at a slower rate because they are not as dark.

Maybe I am missing something.

Also, if heat is being distributed via flexwatt or some other NONLIGHT related device I would think that the darkness of the boa would have zero impact. Yes, in the wild via sun... darker colors absorb more light which therefor allows them to heat up better...and light colors reflect more therefor making it harder on the animal...but ambients temps and undertank heaters should be absorbed at the same rate with any animal.

[natas]

I know Julius is probably going to come back and shred to pieces my conclusion to his, but wouldn't any color pigmentation deficiency in that theory be bad? Hypo, Anery, Albino, heck any thing with less spots then normal could also be considered bad in that area. A boa missing saddles would have way less darkness overall then a normal

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally Posted by muzixman

Why do you say they are developing faster than the albinos?? wouldnt they be obsorbing the same temp from there mother???

No, I don't believe they do. I've been watching this for years pondering why the higher incident rate of premature births. It's often complicated with random other prematurities for unknown or unexplained reasons...but after awhile the trend towards a certain flaw becomes evident. I'm not willing to go poking temperature probes inside of gravid females nor am I willing to gut a gravid female and quickly temp probe developing embryos so I really can't offer proof, just observations.

I think some of the other premature births has to do with their breeding habits. They will breed some times for over a month and each copulation has the potential of fertalizing eggs though as time goes on, the chances become lesser for anything to be left to fertalize so the earlier breeding(s) will be the more likely to succeed but now and then an egg gets left out and possibly gets fertilized late and ends up a premmie. I can't mathmatically even ponder the odds that albino offspring from a het x het or het x homo pairing will statistically occur more often in the later breedings of a given breeding cycle. There's no reason to believe such a thing so that can't explain their higher rate of stills and premature births. Heat absorbtion absoltely can though.

[JuliusSqueezer]

You guys are confusing light absorbtion with heat absorbtion.

I feel I have to clarify that this is all a theory that I have no absolute proof of. There could be something else entirely that causes it...but something ain't right and that's the best I can figure.

[natas]

Actually I thought you had it confused. How is heat absorbtion affected by color? I know heat absorbtion using light as the source is affected by color...but don't see how it is when nonLight sources are used.

[natas]

Also, in your theory are both Albino strains of BCI affected by this?

What about the other forms of albinoism? Hypomelanistic are actually considered by some as a form of albino...what about them.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I don't know. I haven't been following hypo births. Are you suggesting I take on a new mission? Since it's just a reduction in melanin and not a lack of and I have never heard of nor noted any health issues associated with hypomelanism other than what could easily be explained as inbreeding problems or improper prenatal care...I haven't ever considered them as being a target of reform.

[bcfos1]

Originally Posted by muzixman

Why do you say they are developing faster than the albinos?? wouldnt they be obsorbing the same temp from there mother???

Simple test to end this theory.. Go out in the middle of a huge open parking lot and make sure you are wearing a dark colored shirt and pants. Stay there for 30 minutes and come back and take a surface temp reading of your clothing. Now do it wearing all white. You should be both cooler as the white reflects the light and most of the heat where as the dark colors absorb them.

Same principal would go for boa's (or any snake for that matter).. I have never thought of it in these terms but it goes to reason. Remember hearing the weather person on the TV giving tips on how to avoid heat stroke and heat exhaustion?? One of those steps was wear light colored clothing...

[natas]

Actually, I don't know how much of this is true...but I have heard that the salmon line of hypo are prone to bad RI problems. Some people think its a result of bad inbreeding, while others say its to do with genetics and the salmon hypo trait.

Either way I can't confirm that its common or not.

However, I am still confused on how being albino causes a female to not absorb heat from nonLight devices as well as normals

[bleeding_sarcasm]

I have to agree with natas, absorbing heat from a non-light emmiting heat source shouldnt be different between albinos and non-albinos if there is no light.

A better experiment would be, sit in the shade, on a really hot day, and see if you are hotter in a black t-shirt, or a white t-shirt.

is this a debate about only breeding albino BOAs? or breeding other albino reptiles too?

like, for example, egg laying species, where eggs can take however long they want to hatch instead of all being pushed out at the same time?

I am not opposed to breeding albinos. I am opposed to questionable breeding practices that are relevent to this thread, but are better suited for the other thread.

boa morphs i have no experience with. Albino vs. normal leopard geckos I do. My experience says that it is fully possible for albinos to lead full and healthy lives, just as well as their non-albino counter parts.

[Jatango]

What if it's not the lack of melanin, but the different structure of the skin without that building block? Could stand to reason that it may absorb non-light heat sources differently.

In the t-shirt example, do darker shirts weigh more because the fibers are impregnated with dye?

[morti]

I think some of the other premature births has to do with their breeding habits. They will breed some times for over a month and each copulation has the potential of fertalizing eggs though as time goes on, the chances become lesser for anything to be left to fertalize so the earlier breeding(s) will be the more likely to succeed but now and then an egg gets left out and possibly gets fertilized late and ends up a premmie.

That's not really how that works.

I'll Cite multiple sources offline:
"Reproductive Husbandry of Pythons and Boas" by Richard Ross, Et al.
"Pythons of the World Vol. II" Dave and Tracy Barker


A. Trachea
B. Esophagus
C. Thymus
D. Thyroid
E. Heart
F. Vestigial left lung G. Right lung
H. Air sac
I. Liver
J. Gall Bladder
K. Stomach
L. Spleen M. Pancreas
N. Ovary
O. Adrenal gland
P. Oviduct
Q. Kidney (right)
R. Ureter S. Colon
T. Cloaca
U. Scent glands
V. Uterus
W. Small intestine
(Picture from: Snake Anatomy and Physiology )

Because of snake biology, any successful copulation has to occur before ovulation. The sperm is stored just anterior of the oviduct, and when ovulation occurs, the the ovum is passed from the ovary to the oviduct where it is fertilized with the previously stored sperm. So what I am saying is, the ova are not fertilized at different times by earlier or later copulation. The ova are all fertilized at the time of ovulation. If something goes awry at this time, then ova don't get fertilized, resulting in slugs.

Because I know this about snake biology, it really leads me to believe that the number of functioning chromatophors that the snake is eventually going to have has no bearing on whether her ovaries are working and slugs will be produced.

Your theory has some credence with why some babies are preemie in that there is at least one theory that somewhat agrees with you:

From Jeff Ronne, posted at: "Slow Motion Ovulation" "Slow Mo O" or "SMO" - The Boa Network Forum Boards

That article describes Jeff's findings about some female boas tendency to not do a big, dramatic football shaped ovulation, but rather seem to ovulate slowly and consistently over the course of about a week. By that theory, the last ovum out would be fertilized as much as a week later than the first one. That could explain some premature neonates in a litter of mixed maturity.

As far as color and heat, I have to agree with Natas. What we all learned at a young age about color affecting heat absorption is really color affecting light absorption. It is because of the unique properties of light (Both a particle and a wave) that we even have color. What we perceive as color is the amount of light that is reflected across the prismatic spectrum. Heat does not have the same properties as light. It does not move in a straight line until reflected. It's properties change with the medium being heated.

I am sure I can find links to support my theory, but this is 7th grade science fair stuff.

[bcfos1]

Originally Posted by morti

Heat does not have the same properties as light. It does not move in a straight line until reflected. It's properties change with the medium being heated.

I am sure I can find links to support my theory, but this is 7th grade science fair stuff.

Then by that rational a minute difference in skin depth and density would indeed have an adverse effect now wouldn't it?? Do you know for a fact the skin depth and density on albino's is exactly the same as regular non morph boa's?? We know for a fact albino's have Foveal hypoplasia, which is underdevelopment of the fovea, or in common terms the center of the retina. Might be possible this is not the only thing which is underdeveloped in them now couldn't it?

One thing to support this would be the fact they test toxic levels of corrosiveness in albino rabbits and rats.. Why don't they test it in regular non albino subjects?

[morti]

Originally Posted by bcfos1

Then by that rational a minute difference in skin depth and density would indeed have an adverse effect now wouldn't it?? Do you know for a fact the skin depth and density on albino's is exactly the same as regular non morph boa's?? We know for a fact albino's have Foveal hypoplasia, which is underdevelopment of the fovea, or in common terms the center of the retina. Might be possible this is not the only thing which is underdeveloped in them now couldn't it?
One thing to support this would be the fact they test toxic levels of corrosiveness in albino rabbits and rats.. Why don't they test it in regular non albino subjects?

I have no knowledge of whether the skin density of snakes changes based on albinism. I have no reason to believe it would, but you are correct.. I cannot say with 100% certainty that it does not.

As far as why they test ANYTHING on albino subjects, albino lab animals have been the standard for a while. Here is a quote:

name Ben S.
status educator
age 30s

Question - Why do laboratories prefer to use albino animals? I s
there a history to this use? Can anyone recommend a book, website etc.
that will detail the history of albine animal use in laboratories?
====
Charle River Labs is a good place to check out and I think the mouse to
which you refer is the Balb/c...These animals are not preferred because they
are albinos but because they are highly inbred...(about twenty generations
at least I hear) to ensure that they are essentially genetically identical
and can freely be used as tissue donors etc without worry of rejection and
also for consistency among animals in an experiment. I do not think we
actually prefer albinos ..it was just what was on the market but there are
many other non-albinos that are in use and the balb/c is less popular. F1
hybrids were my preference...being more reflective of the wild world.

Peter Faletra Ph.D.
Office of Science
Department of Energy

found here: Albino lab Animals

Specifically for testing corrosiveness, I have no idea. Do you have a link to an explanation of why, other than the standard "Most lab rats are albino"?

[JuliusSqueezer]

Here's what I never understood. Dark skinned people tend to be comfortable at higher temps than light skinned people. Is this perhaps due to adaptation to climate or is it physiological? I have black friends that in an 80 degree room, they complain that they are freezing to death. At 78, I'm roasting No idea if this feeling of comfort carries on to light skinned/dark skinned reptiles but perhaps albino females feel warm at lower temps and so don't lay on the heat as long?

At any rate, Heat during gestation is the key to speed of development. That's proven many times over. I can't think of another single factor that would somehow effect a variable in developing offspring that would target more towards albinos unless it's a heat absorbtion issue.

Egg layers...we already covered that they have a definate advantage for being able to develop at their own rate with no influence from fellow siblings rate of development. Just as healthy though? No way!

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally Posted by morti

I have no knowledge of whether the skin density of snakes changes based on albinism. I have no reason to believe it would, but you are correct.. I cannot say with 100% certainty that it does not.

As far as why they test ANYTHING on albino subjects, albino lab animals have been the standard for a while. Here is a quote:


found here: Albino lab Animals

Specifically for testing corrosiveness, I have no idea. Do you have a link to an explanation of why, other than the standard "Most lab rats are albino"?

I have heard that it's because they are more prone to cancer...but who knows? I have a freezer packed full of albino rodents.

[natas]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Here's what I never understood. Dark skinned people tend to be comfortable at higher temps than light skinned people. Is this perhaps due to adaptation to climate or is it physiological? I have black friends that in an 80 degree room, they complain that they are freezing to death. At 78, I'm roasting No idea if this feeling of comfort carries on to light skinned/dark skinned reptiles but perhaps albino females feel warm at lower temps and so don't lay on the heat as long?

At any rate, Heat during gestation is the key to speed of development. That's proven many times over. I can't think of another single factor that would somehow effect a variable in developing offspring that would target more towards albinos unless it's a heat absorbtion issue.

Egg layers...we already covered that they have a definate advantage for being able to develop at their own rate with no influence from fellow siblings rate of development. Just as healthy though? No way!

A black person preferring 80 degree over a White european person is simple, thats because of natural adaption to the whether his/her ansectors are from. I read a whole study on that. Thats also why his/her skin is darker.

I am part native american, and I have fairly dark skin. Jillian is white as white can get, she is part dutch. When its 80 degrees in the house she cannot stand it, I on the other hand don't mind one bit.

Put a albino black person in the same room and I bet he/she be would not mind the 80 degree temp as much as a albino white man.

Put the albino people outside in the sun and both will complain because the skin is not able to handle it properly. Just like Jill sun burns, and I have had only one sun burn in my life (from being out in the sun for 8 straight hours).

And even if a persons skin is slightly thinner or thicker depending on them being albino is still stretching it. If it is true, I am sure its such a small difference that in no way would it affect a person or animal. If you want to get that indepth and nit picky then anything slightly darker or lighter would make a difference.

[bcfos1]

Originally Posted by morti

Specifically for testing corrosiveness, I have no idea. Do you have a link to an explanation of why, other than the standard "Most lab rats are albino"?

Actually they prefer to test on albino rabbits. Rodents are less than 3% of the use in this test. As to why they prefer albino rabbits I haven't found an answer yet, but there is one more stop I have to make before the day is out and i am pretty sure I can get an answer from that research facility.

[torlax]

I'm going to keep my argument as short as i can.No, we should not breed albino's for they almost always will end up with problems, sometimes the problems are not noticeable, but end up showing up. Albino snakes don't have any camo to hide if they were in the wild, yes they may look cool, but they are very sensitive and again, almost always have a problem with their organs or the way they look.

[razeraze]

I believe this should go further than albinos. I believe the bat eaters, dwarf retcs and "designer" reptiles should all be kept from the greedy profession of the reptile world. I believe if you truly love reptiles like I do you could care less if they have mutations, but you can not justify paying more for them. If anything I believe the anomalies should be sold for less and to experienced keepers who will be able to specifically address proper care.

Just a creepy thought. Albinos which were once the Ferrari of the reptile world are now ending up in shelters because new "prettier" snakes are out there. Soon bat eaters will be just another snake while greedy breeders look for the next big thing. Much like I hate dwarf retics. If you want a retic, your first attraction to it should be the size. These are arguably the longest snakes in the world, why would you want to water that down to fit your selfish needs. Keeping reptiles becomes very selfish if they are just eye candy and you don't love them naturally.