Should we breed albinos? V1.0

[natas]

You maybe right Julius, but I really haven't looked into it as much as you. I have seen birth results from het x het breeding about 4 times and didn't notice any of them being smaller then the normals. Then again this was about 3-4 years ago, for all I know the gene pool maybe at its weakest now

Also, is this only in boas?

[JuliusSqueezer]

Albino is a disease regardless of species...but as I said before, the egg layers have a definate advantage of producing semihealthy (if you want to call them that) offspring since each egg develops at it's own rate not dependant of clutchmates developing at the same rate.

[sarecho7280]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Albino is a disease regardless of species...but as I said before, the egg layers have a definate advantage of producing semihealthy (if you want to call them that) offspring since each egg develops at it's own rate not dependant of clutchmates developing at the same rate.

never thought of that or even heard it mentioned. very interesting though.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Could explain why albino corns, kings, burms etc are a dime a dozen now and albino boas are still somewhat a rarity. Ball pythons have small clutches so the dime a dozen doesn't apply to them yet.

[morti]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

Could explain why albino corns, kings, burms etc are a dime a dozen now and albino boas are still somewhat a rarity. Ball pythons have small clutches so the dime a dozen doesn't apply to them yet.

I wasn't even going to post in this topic, but... Albino boas a rarity? There are TONS of albino boas. I see loads of big, healthy albino babies at every show I go to. Their prices are dropping to affordable, and the hets are almost cheap.

I think, and please understand this is just my opinion, that perhaps you are refusing to see them?

[Jatango]

The Doberman Pinscher Club of America's take on Tyrosine +, - and partial dobes. Worth a read for reptile people too.

Original Source

In November 1976, a mutation occurred with the whelping of a cream colored Doberman.

Her sire, dam, and litter-mates were normal colored black and tans. She had pale blue eyes, pink nose, eye rims, pads and membranes. Where tan markings would be they were Albino.

She was bred to a dominant black male, producing 14 black and tan pups. A male and female were kept and all ran loose. Her son sired her next litter, which contained 2 Albino males. He was also bred to his sister and her litter contained 2 Albino *female dogs*. Later, these Albinos were bred together producing all Albinos.

These dogs have been highly inbred and have multiplied at an enormous rate, and unfortunately they are being bred into our top show lines.

While we can readily identify an Albino, we cannot detect the mutant gene which is carried by a great many of our normal colored dogs.

It has been proven that the Albino mutation is not related to our dilution genes (blue and fawn).

In 1982, the AKC approved the DPCA's amendment to the Doberman standard disqualifying "dogs not of an allowed color."

This prevented the Albino's from being shown in the conformation ring, but unfortunately does not stop the continued breeding of these mutant Dobermans. The AKC had refused DPCA's request to cancel any registration of Albino Dobermans.

The DPCA employed the services of several noted geneticists, vets, and color experts as well as purchasing 2 Albino female dogs for test breedings. They also conducted many scientific studies of hair, skin and eyes by professionals at leading universities.

The results after a five-year study conducted by the DPCA and its consultants, concluded these mutants were correctly termed, "albino or tyrosine positive, partial albino or tyrosine negative which suffer from hypo-melanocytic disease. It is important to note here that partial albinos are still albinos.

Albinism is a deleterious mutation which affects the whole body.

Why does the DPCA reject the Albino?

We know that these dogs are photophobic, (sensitive to sun light). They have vision problems resulting from abnormal development of the retina.

They are prone to skin cancer and skin lesions. Due to the lack of pigment, they are extremely susceptible to skin damage from the sun.

Poor temperament is a significant concern. Due to the intense inbreeding to obtain the mutation, the temperaments on a great many are totally unstable. These problems range from fear biting to outright vicious attacks. Shyness is prevalent. Most are not suitable for homes with small children. Yes, there are exceptions, but hardly enough to make them acceptable to most families.

In addition to the above problems concerning health and temperament, these dogs have a total lack of breed type.

There is dialog currently between the DPCA and the American Kennel Club to impose a breeding restriction on the Albinos. They would still be registered, but would have the same restrictions as an ILP registered dog. Owners would not be allowed to register any progeny of the Albinos.

While negotiations continue, the DPCA is utilizing a tracking system, call The "Z" List. This tracking system identifies any dogs that may carry this mutant gene. It enables ethical breeders to avoid breeding to animals with the defect.

While we can understand the attachment one can have for animals of all colors, sizes, shapes and pedigreed or not, we must realize that the Doberman Pinscher was a breed created for a purpose.

A standard of excellence was drawn up describing what the ideal Doberman should look like, how it should act, and what colors it should be. Albino cannot be classified as a color. It is just the opposite. It is the lack of color.

No recognized standard would call for a dog that is Albinoid. It is a genetic defect in all creatures.

The DPCA Code of Ethics is available upon request.

This brochure is updated from the original text written by:
Mrs. Judy Doniere
Second Edition, 2001

DPCA Albino Committee Chair: Cheryl Gates; E-mail: CHMurrey@aol.com

[JuliusSqueezer]

Originally Posted by morti

I wasn't even going to post in this topic, but... Albino boas a rarity? There are TONS of albino boas. I see loads of big, healthy albino babies at every show I go to. Their prices are dropping to affordable, and the hets are almost cheap.

I think, and please understand this is just my opinion, that perhaps you are refusing to see them?

I said "MORE" a rarity. Albino corns, kings, burms etc are a dime a dozen. Especially corns to the point that if you want a normal het for squat, you pretty much have to go herping. That isn't the case with the boas despite the large litters...yet. I've personally never seen a "healthy" albino anything and don't believe they exist. I don't see how anything can be considered "healthy" when it has a disease. Even if you think it's not so bad, you certainly can't claim that they are better off or even AS healthy as a wild type normal...or I guess you can claim anything but can you back it up with medical science? Because I certainly can back up the fact that it's a disease. "as healthy as a diseased albino can possibly be"? Yeah, I've seen those too but I still feel really bad for them.

[natas]

I think I have to argue with you Julius on the amount of Albinos being rare in the Boa market.

Other morphs are rarer. Go take a look at Jungles, Motleys, Striped to name a few. I maybe off a little, but the albino is actually one of the more common "morphs" in the boa world. I would say that even Hypo's and Anerythristic's are more rare then albinos and those are simple recessive traits.

I maybe off tho on the Hypo and Anery thing....but I doubt it

[JuliusSqueezer]

You guys are taking the word "rare" to mean something that I didn't intend. Yes there are plenty of albino boas...but not so many that surplus is falling over into petco or being traded off for used fish tanks. They aren't in such abundance that you are surprised to see a normal...yet.

[natas]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

You guys are taking the word "rare" to mean something that I didn't intend. Yes there are plenty of albino boas...but not so many that surplus is falling over into petco or being traded off for used fish tanks. They aren't in such abundance that you are surprised to see a normal...yet.

I don't see this happening with the boa. I have never seen any morph of Boa in a petshop locally or any common shop I have visited around the state. I always seen baby "Redtail Boas".

However, I do know what you are saying. This happened to Burmese pythons, I can't tell you the last time I saw a normal Burm at a pet shop.

[JuliusSqueezer]

I credit the number of albino boas on the market to the ease of boa breeding, large litters, vigor of breeders to make as many as they can. Sadly, this only offsets the tragic losses of all the "breakage" to a degree. Albino boas aren't limited because of lack of interest and trying to flood the market. No one I know of that breeds them is in any way holding back trying to limit them to preserve the high prices. Even moreso with snows. If they weren't any less likely to produce bad litters full of robust "healthy" albinos, there's been plenty of time to flood the market by now. The only thing that's kept this from happening is mortality rate. People don't tend to count mortality of that which they never see. If a vendor at a show has 10 albinos for sale. Ever wonder how many died so that 10 could represent? Too many people look at the 10 that made it and start counting the mortality rate from there...The premies, stillborns, slugs, deformed....none of those count right? To me they do. And sure, you can get all that regardless of the genetics for any number of reasons. It's always a risk but ignoring things that increase the risk to the point where breeders do snoopy dances when one or two finally take off and try to survive...well that just sucks.

On that same note, this talk of breeding spider balls because there is a CHANCE that SOME might not come out with obvious signs of neurological disease (Spinning bobblehead ..whatever)...wow. Whatever happened to even moderate ethics?

[boafiend]

i have an albino burmese python and i would never breed for the health of the babies, in captive breeding we are mainly in control of what happens, to purposely pass on a genetic defect is wrong no matter what your ethics, ethics is just an excuse to do something you shouldnt, i have a question tho for everyone. If you could make your CHILD albino, would you???

[bcfos1]

Originally Posted by boafiend

i have a question tho for everyone. If you could make your CHILD albino, would you???

No but I am positive if they aere legal to sell and there was a market for them certain breeders from up north would be spinning the albino gene wheel of fortune. But then again when ethics are lacking at best you cannot expect much..

As for albino boa's.. There are plenty of them around each season but I doubt there is a surplus. And the mortality also is a factor. Morti just had a litter and experienced some stillborns due to a drop in tempature.. It happens more than one would think. Plus if the tempature is not "perfect" during development you can get some rather strange "non-typical" pattern changes which sadly some breeders market as some "new morph" and some members of the community buy as "some new morph". You can breed these till they die and never see this pattern difference come out again. This is the only down side of breeding boa's as I see it. Egg layers we can have more control over the conditions via incubation or allowing the mother to naturally do her thing. With boa's one tempature drop when you are at work or the mall can give you some undeveolped still born's and what not. But a positive of breeding them is they are like Jack Russell Terriers.. You never know what they are going to throw till you see them.

[morti]

Morti just had a litter and experienced some stillborns due to a drop in tempature

Just a point of clarification: That was not an albino litter.

[TammyJamaica]

Well I have gone right through this debate and absorbed all the opinions.

I feel like rushing home right now and checking to see if Maize, my dime a dozen albino corn, is still alive.

Seriously though, my position is that I agree with JS that albinism is a disease of a sort, not to be propogated. I would never breed Maize to another albino, in fact I probably would never breed her at all. Got her at a pet shop here about four years ago and she is doing fine so far because of the careful way we keep her. This "careful way" may not apply to most keepers of albinos, so I am sure that a lot of albino animals go through much suffering.

Maize came from a batch of other albino baby corns.

[muzixman]

I think there are some breeders that have realized that albino females don’t have a very good success rate and yes I do believe it to be caused by them not being able to absorb the heat needed for her off spring to properly develop. Me myself will never breed a female albino because of this. But if you think this is the only reason you see these breeders with only 8/10 or whatever albino babies or the market not flooded with them is because there are no/few successful liters I wont be able to agree with that. Het females will have a higher success rate because they can absorb the heat needed for a successful litter but your going to get ¼ or ½ litter of albinos, It also make sense as to why het/alb females are going for more than het males.

Originally Posted by natas

I have seen birth results from het x het breeding about 4 times and didn't notice any of them being smaller then the normals. Then again this was about 3-4 years ago

Even natas has scene no differance if ethically breed. I am aware they do have speical needs that have to be considered and anyone owning one should be aware of them.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Muzix...it's a double edged sword though. Yes a Het but nonalbino female will absorb heat better and so better incubate her developing offspring. But at the same time, absorbing heat isn't just a light reflecting/absorbing issue. The pigmented babies inside are developing at a faster rate too even if only slightly faster and when they get ready to be born, they are born and anything else has to be born with them, ready or not. I believe this to be why there are so many underdeveloped albino boas born in these mixed litters. For me though, the real ethical question is "why breed for a disease to begin with?"

[muzixman]

Originally Posted by muzixman

It also make sense as to why het/alb females are going for more than het males.

A little explanation why I think this You can breed a male albino to the het and get half albinos and half 100% het for albino (more moneys) vs a male het to albino female which the results wouldn’t be very good and het to het your going to get ¼ albinos and the rest possible het for albinos. And there are a lot of greedy people out there.

[muzixman]

Originally Posted by JuliusSqueezer

The pigmented babies inside are developing at a faster rate too even if only slightly faster

Why do you say they are developing faster than the albinos?? wouldnt they be obsorbing the same temp from there mother???

[JuliusSqueezer]

Yea...I don't think anyone is questioning the punett square and how it works. I think this debate is more on the line of...should this disease be propegated? Is it ethical given the facts that it is a disease and has health consequences? Not what is the best way to inflict boas with pigmentation defeciency