UNCONFIRMED debate on "Unrelated"

[RioBravoReptiles]

What does UNRELATED mean to you, is it important and why? or why not?
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I posted a poll on this subject some time ago (can't find it now??) but probably because I didn't put enough thought into the questions I was unable to find out very much on the subject. This I suppose, is the essay portion of the quiz!
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So please share your thoughts! If you will also say whether or not you breed Boa constrictor or plan to, that would be extra help..
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Thanks in advance for any info or opinion. Gus.

[Aaron_NSBM]

found it for you..look up a couple post!

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by northstarboasandmore

found it for you..look up a couple post!

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Thanks! but still try the ESSAY section here!

[morti]

I do currently breed Boa constrictor on a small scale. My goal is specifically BCI Morphs.

The Following is my opinion. The majority of my opinion is based on research but some of it is "morals".

I would like to get out of the way up front that Inbreeding Is Bad. It has been proven to be detrimental to the viability of the offspring many times over both in the wild and in captive environments. Most of the studies were done on either self-fertilization of plants and/or sibling to sibling breeding of animals. The effects of inbreeding seem to climb at an exponential rate with successive generations rather than a linear increase. Because of this, I feel that true inbreeding (ie: sibling to sibling or offspring to parent) should never occur in a captive environment for more than 2 filial generations.

When do I feel that inbreeding is acceptable?

It is my opinion that, in order to prove out a new morph, inbreeding is acceptable for 1-2 filial generations. If possible, I would prefer to see parent to offspring breeding rather than sibling to sibling breeding. The reason for this is as follows: Each offspring of the original breeding acquires approximately half of it's genetics from each parent. If a child is bred back to a parent, the resultant offspring have a smaller chance of getting any undesirable distilled traits than they would if bred sibling to sibling.

I also feel that in some situations the number of unrelated specimens of a particular species is so under-represented in captivity that there may be no option other than to inbreed founding stock. If, for whatever reason, importing “fresh blood” from the wild is not an option, and the pair of animals in question seem to be the only ones around, a careful breeding program needs to be established that progressively reduces the direct relationship between all offspring in the future. This does not seem to be a problem with any animal in genus Boa.

When do I feel that inbreeding is NOT acceptable?

Any time that it is easily avoidable. If I have a pair of sibling het for albino boas (as an example), I do not feel that it is acceptable to breed this pair because unrelated animals are so easy to acquire. If, however, I had a sibling pair of het for leucistic BCC from Brazil (I can only dream!) I feel that I would be almost obligated to breed them to each other as this would be the only pair in the states.

I am sorry for starting with a semi-unrelated lecture. That was the long form of the answer to “Is Unrelated important?” The short answer would be “Yes. Very.”

What does “Unrelated” actually mean?

I feel that animals of 1st cousin or further distant are officially unrelated. Any closer relationship (ie: sibling, parent, aunt/uncle) are officially related. 1st cousin relationship assumes that both F1 siblings were bred to un-related animals that were also unrelated to each other. If both F1 siblings were bred to another pair of F1 siblings, the relationship would be significantly closer than cousins.

I know that my opinion is not going to win any popularity contests, but I am kind of used to that by now.

[RioBravoReptiles]

Fabulous, MORTI...
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More!

[Aaron_NSBM]

I agree with Morti! That was very well said!

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by northstarboasandmore

I agree with Morti! That was very well said!

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CHEATER!

[Aaron_NSBM]

I could have in no way said it any better!

[morti]

So Gus, what is YOUR answer?

[Cristina]

Originally Posted by morti

I do currently breed Boa constrictor on a small scale. My goal is specifically BCI Morphs.

The Following is my opinion. The majority of my opinion is based on research but some of it is "morals".

I would like to get out of the way up front that Inbreeding Is Bad. It has been proven to be detrimental to the viability of the offspring many times over both in the wild and in captive environments. Most of the studies were done on either self-fertilization of plants and/or sibling to sibling breeding of animals. The effects of inbreeding seem to climb at an exponential rate with successive generations rather than a linear increase. Because of this, I feel that true inbreeding (ie: sibling to sibling or offspring to parent) should never occur in a captive environment for more than 2 filial generations.

When do I feel that inbreeding is acceptable?

It is my opinion that, in order to prove out a new morph, inbreeding is acceptable for 1-2 filial generations. If possible, I would prefer to see parent to offspring breeding rather than sibling to sibling breeding. The reason for this is as follows: Each offspring of the original breeding acquires approximately half of it's genetics from each parent. If a child is bred back to a parent, the resultant offspring have a smaller chance of getting any undesirable distilled traits than they would if bred sibling to sibling.

I also feel that in some situations the number of unrelated specimens of a particular species is so under-represented in captivity that there may be no option other than to inbreed founding stock. If, for whatever reason, importing “fresh blood” from the wild is not an option, and the pair of animals in question seem to be the only ones around, a careful breeding program needs to be established that progressively reduces the direct relationship between all offspring in the future. This does not seem to be a problem with any animal in genus Boa.

When do I feel that inbreeding is NOT acceptable?

Any time that it is easily avoidable. If I have a pair of sibling het for albino boas (as an example), I do not feel that it is acceptable to breed this pair because unrelated animals are so easy to acquire. If, however, I had a sibling pair of het for leucistic BCC from Brazil (I can only dream!) I feel that I would be almost obligated to breed them to each other as this would be the only pair in the states.

I am sorry for starting with a semi-unrelated lecture. That was the long form of the answer to “Is Unrelated important?” The short answer would be “Yes. Very.”

What does “Unrelated” actually mean?

I feel that animals of 1st cousin or further distant are officially unrelated. Any closer relationship (ie: sibling, parent, aunt/uncle) are officially related. 1st cousin relationship assumes that both F1 siblings were bred to un-related animals that were also unrelated to each other. If both F1 siblings were bred to another pair of F1 siblings, the relationship would be significantly closer than cousins.

I know that my opinion is not going to win any popularity contests, but I am kind of used to that by now.

Your definition of "unrelated" is in simple terms, and the answer I have been looking for..
Thanks

[morti]

Originally Posted by cris78

Your definition of "unrelated" is in simple terms, and the answer I have been looking for..
Thanks

Please please please don't take anything I have to say on this subject as gospel until others weigh in on it. Trust me when I tell you I am more interested in hearing other opinions than I was in sharing my own. Hopefully we can all come to some sort of consensus on this... "What is unrelated" has always been a debatable topic.

[RioBravoReptiles]

Originally Posted by morti

Please please please don't take anything I have to say on this subject as gospel until others weigh in on it. Trust me when I tell you I am more interested in hearing other opinions than I was in sharing my own. Hopefully we can all come to some sort of consensus on this... "What is unrelated" has always been a debatable topic.

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He's right on there. He gave a fabulous answer! But like most all answers to this question it was imperfect and even somewhat contradictory! That's what makes this an interesting topic.
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Thanks all. MORE (new) answers!

[morti]

DBall, I am calling you out brother... I see you reading this and I KNOW you have an opinion.

[Cristina]

i ment it was a great answer and easily understood for ppl who plan on breeding

[dball]

"Inbreeding is bad"

"It is acceptable to prove out a morph"

Unacceptable "any time it is easily avoided"

If people quit breeding for genetically defective traits, this would be easily avoided.

Want to avoid inbreeding, quit breeding morphs. Not saying you (Morti) are a hypocrite. BUT, you have to agree that when you say inbreeding is bad and should not be done if it can be avoided, but then you say its acceptible just to prove out a stinking morph, you sound like a hypocrite.

Unless it is absolutely necessessary (which proving out a morph isn't, except for making money), it should not be done. Period. End of story.

[dball]

Originally Posted by morti

DBall, I am calling you out brother... I see you reading this and I KNOW you have an opinion.

Dang it. I have to rack up some points so I can be invisible in the viewing thread box. Lol.

When it comes to breeding, I am not a breeder. Do I plan on ever breeding, it's possible. For money, no. The only reason I am very unsure of breeding is because I would be tempted to keep them all because I do not want to see them go to bad homes.

If I breed my snakes I would choose to keep them as distant as possible. First cousins might be "unrelated" and have little to no risk of birth defects/internal problems. But with the amount of captive boas and pythons I see no reason you should be breeding first cousins anyway, no matter how little the risk.

It's my opinion. Not as scientific as Morti's, but it gets the point across.

[morti]

As I stated, the goal of my BCI breeding is specifically to produce BCI morphs. My motivation to produce morphs is because I happen to like BCI morphs, especially arabesque, albino, and hypo. My holy grail at the moment is an Arabesque Sunglow.

When I say Prove out a Morph, I actually mean to actually prove out a morph. That means prove it out for the very first time. After that very first proving, IMHO, there is NO further reason to inbreed.

The reason I say it is unacceptable any time it is easily avoided is because it iritates me to see people breeing two hets for a common trait to "prove it out". They are not doing the proving. Somebody else did the proving years ago.

Hopefully that helps explain my seemingly contradictory statements. I can see how my statement did not accurately refelect my thoughts on the matter. I can also see where many people are not even going to agree with me with the caveat of only proving out a morph for the first time.

Back to the question: What is Unrelated = What is inbreeding. I (hypothetical) can tell you all day long that I am not inbreeding, but if I am breeding half siblings, you might think I am. So what do you call unrelated?

[morti]

Sorry to press you but I like clarity:

First cousins might be "unrelated" and have little to no risk of birth defects/internal problems.

So does that mean that you think first cousins suitably fit the definition of "unrelated" or do you feel they should be more distantly related? I feel that a line has to be drawn somewhere.

[RioBravoReptiles]

There's a lot of hedging and explaining (and maybe head-butting) going on! And some good info too..
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Maybe if we put aside, for the duration of this thread at least, ethics, business concerns, past feuds or competitions and so on.. the answers will be more clear!
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The question is only How do YOU define unrelated? and Does it even matter to you?
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Thanks for playing!

[JuliusSqueezer]

When is it acceptable? When there are only 2 of a species left on the planet period...not of a morph but of a species. Breeding for cool colors does not outweigh breeding for healthy animals in my opinion. You are under no obligation to supply the pet trade with genetic mutants. It's already quite heavily supplied with such animals. Especially traits that are unhealthy such as amelanism and leucisism. If a market arose for snakes with chronic respiratory infections because they sound cool when they grunt and cough, would you breed for that trait?...actually I think some of the burm breeders are currently doing just that but that's going way down another path...anyway...

What is related by definition? I would pair my animals with the same guidlines I would pair myself with (If I were available). I would never date or marry anyone that might have a reason to show up at one of my family reunions be it sisters, mom, grandmom, aunts, cousins etc...even 3rd or 4th cousins. I wouldn't even hook up with anyone with any of the same last names as any of my close relatives even if I've never met them and don't know of any relation just in case.

All that said, there's no way to really know that a boa bought at petco in Atlanta isn't closely related somehow to a boa bought from Gus in texas. I'm sure Gus sells animals that are again bred and some may end up who knows where...there's always that chance...but I wouldn't do it knowingly and avoid such things as much as I can. The slight chance that it could happen accidently doesn't make it ok to just do it.

Morti says inbreeding is OK for 1 or 2 generations. Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. But whether it is or isn't, people only ever tend to account for their own actions and never seem to take into considerations how much inbreeding resulted in the pair you have now before they got to you. Noone seems to care to take precautions with the offspring they sell to make sure that they aren't entered into another few generations of inbreeding by folks that will sell the offspring to other people who will inbreed them thinking all the time "well, I hear one or two generations is ok". Again...maybe it's ok. maybe it's not but what I want to know is...when does it really end? I've seen enough one eyed albino boas and bug eyed leucistic texas ratsnakes and many many more such examples of captive inbreeding depression. I don't want to see any more. Please breed responsibly.