Need ID on this one and also some questions on it...

#1 (**permalink**) 10-20-2002, 09:25 AM

A gopher.. right ? But exactly what ss is it please ?

Also.. What are the thoughts on keeping this one on a substrate of cypress mulch ?
In a reptarium ?
ambient temp of 76 degrees in the room and has a heating pad set on low under one end of the cage . Any thoughts on this at all ? Personally I don't think that is adequate heating for this snake IMO, but would like feedback from others also ??

The snake spends most of it's day in the box with it's head sticking out a bit. It also will sit on that branch at night usually. The heating pad is under the flower pot.

BTW.. This is not my snake. I am trying to help someone out and am looking for more input from others on it also.
The problem with the snake atm is that it was acquired approximately 5-6 months ago and fed [ ravenously ] at first and then went off feeds. It has been off feeds for 5 months now basically.

Personally, my thoughts on it are in the area that the reptarium isn't keeping adequate heat levels for the snake. Especially with a low heat setting and also an ambient room temp of 76 degrees. Also I myslef have never kept my gopher that I used to have on a substrate of cypress mulch [ I kept em on desert sand basically].

So anyone got any input on this snake at all ? OH here's the pics of it btw ...

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telefrag · #2 (**permalink**) 10-20-2002, 09:50 AM

Looks like P.c.deserticola,
but it may be a bullsnake.

From the head shot, im going to go with deserticola,
great basin gopher.

cypress really isnt the best thing to keep them on, but it wouldnt keep the snake from feeding,
at least I wouldnt think so.

Great basins occur over such a wide range that they dont always need warmer temps,
I would go with standard colubrid temps,
mid/low 80's and a warmer basking spot, and a decent NTD.

if he has stopped feeding, you may just want to try small food items.

I had a male GBG for 5 years, and every other year or so, he would just stop feeding for a few months at a time,
just like my japanese rats,
as long as they dont loose too much weight, it may not be that big of a problem, but 5 months is a bit long to go without food.

Good luck, hope that helps.

JuliusSqueezer · #3 (**permalink**) 10-20-2002, 09:24 PM

That be an eastern foxsnake deary....pretty lil fella

do a search on Elaphe vulpina gloydi for info and care. I've always thought of them as a possible evolutionary link between pituophis and elaphe...but have never come across any dna data or even anyone else concerned enough to study this.

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JuliusSqueezer · #4 (**permalink**) 10-20-2002, 09:34 PM

I will mention right away though that they prefer cooler climates and should be hybernated through the winter ...I say hybernated and not brumated because you have to almost freeze them LOL...look up some caresheets...there are quite a few on the web.

They usually feed quite hardily on rodents, chicks or even eggs. (They are bad to raid chicken houses and bird nests) If the snake is off feed...I would check for parasites ...treat as needed and/or inject a bit of vitamin B12.

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telefrag · #5 (**permalink**) 10-20-2002, 10:17 PM

that doesnt look like any gloydi I have ever seen.

Im still saying its a great basin gopher.

http://www.bgsu.edu/departments/biol...pages/fox.html

here is a GBG on the classifieds from KS.com

http://market.kingsnake.com/image/15976.jpg

JuliusSqueezer · #6 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 12:38 AM

I have a great basin gopher . It looks nothing like this snake at all. I dunno of any pure line normal gopher that keeps uniform coloing all the way from neck to tail...they have a fade from dark to light and usually back along the way somewhere...or sometimes in some ssp...fade to red. ...maybe the photo isn't showing good colors....but even besides the colors...the pattern isn't exact of either really...at first glance all I could think was foxsnake because of the way the saddles seemed circled with the light color and because of the shape of them...but the little dark spacers between the saddles now bothers me...could be a mutt of somekind...bull/gopher cross maybe? pine x gopher? or fox x who knows what?... The neck saddles look elaphe. and the rest are too big and too spread out to be gopher...The spacers are more consistant with pinesnake (I didn't notice them at first) but the saddles are too clean and the background is too unspeckled for pine. I still think foxsnake...their patterns vary...but I admit I have never seen any dark lateral lines between foxsnake saddles...so maybe i was quick to be so sure...

Here is a link to some foxsnakes...notice how the eastern has the same saddles and overall look as the snake Lori posted....I have never seen two of any snakes mentioned that were identical.....but GB Gophers do have more square shaped and smaller tighter saddles where eastern foxsnakes have these rounded dented shaped saddles as juvis-subadults...anaconda looking blobs as adults with more yellow as they age...from what I have seen in the past. Again...I'm sure this varies.
foxsnakes

Here is a pic of my Great Basin Gopher

and here is a pic of my new northern pine...doing what pine snakes love to do...act all big and tough. hehe

As far as saddle shape goes...the snake is more consistant with pine or bull snake....but for many reasons I can't ID him as any pine, gopher and definatly not bull...closest match for me is still foxsnake...stranger things have happened than a foxsnake get little dark places between a few saddles. BTW, Telefrag...the one you pictured is a very typical adult. younger foxsnakes and other ratsnakes go through a few changes before ending up with their final look.

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JuliusSqueezer · #7 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 12:49 AM

or pine or bull x gopher...I have a pine x bull...I have never seen a pine or bull x gopher but I would believe it if someone ID'd it as such

Here is my Pine X Bull...close too but still no match close enough to swear by...

OR maybe it's a eastern fox x wastern fox....it really doesn't look grey enough in the photo to be a pure western.

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JuliusSqueezer · #8 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 02:14 AM

Here in lies the problem...Integrades...Can be fun to see what comes out...but...PLEASE... If you cross em up...please make sure that whoever ends up with them knows exactly what they are so they can provide them with proper husbandry.

Here is another link to some foxsnakes...notice in the top pics how the head patterns can vary, one has a solid brown head with no cheek markings kinda like some bullsnakes...and notice how the juvi foxes in the bottom picture are marked much like the one Lori posted.
More Foxsnake Photos

Lori....a quick way to tell if this snake is in the pituophis family is that it will have a single scaled anal plate where if it is a foxsnake it will have a split anal plate. please check this out.

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telefrag · #9 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 04:45 AM

I dont think that snake looks anything like a fox snake, I used to keep fox snakes, and I had a GBG,
but one thing to keep in mind is the great basin gopher has a huge range
and it over laps with cantifer cantifer and sayi in many places.

I agree that it could be a gopher bull cross, or intergrade,
but a fox snake it is not.

Also, in parts of their range that they are found, they have different patterns and colors, just like pines, and bulls.
but on the flip side, that snake also looks like some bullsnakes I just hatched a few weeks ago.

That is a awesome N.pine jules, they are all nice.
Wish I could post pics of some of mine.
but my http server at home isnt working right, and instead of spending my time trying to fix it,
im goofing off

im glad there is another pit afficianado on here with me,
I think najaboy is a pit fan too isnt he? [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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telefrag · #10 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 04:51 AM

oh, on another note,
The deserticola I had didnt look anything like the one in your pic,
and it was hand collected by a friend in N.W. colorado,
so just goes to show that there are no real solid rules to pit identification due to variance over the range.
for example, I have found bulls here in TX some in dallas, others in Weatherford, Mineral wells,
(far west ft worth basically)
and they all looked completely different from one another,
but the ones from the western part of the area I live in all had a similiar grey brown background, while the ones I found more east of ft worth had much more yellow.
a lot of the bulls in tarrant co have a circular pattern,
one I found in erath county had perfect square blotches.
all of these places are within 80 miles of one another,
so, its hard to say,
but that snake is definately a pituophis.
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JuliusSqueezer · #11 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 05:39 AM

I can't tell from the photo how big it is. and yah...bullsnakes vary by location quite a bit...Ive seen them with heavily marked heads and some with almost solid colored heads....the ones with heavily marked heads usually have a black bar between the eyes...and banded labial scales. These are mostly in the eastern part of the range like Iowa/Illinois...colorodo bulls usually have the brown heads and lighter colors. The ones with heavy head markings are usually very dark. I dunno really what made me click "foxsnake" on first site. Some juvies I have seen look awful close though. but the markings just don't gel with me on any pure line of gophersnake....in all fairness, they don't gel with any adult foxsnake either but do with some youngers I have seen and even found pics on the web and posted links to support. The key here is going to be the anal plate. If it is split....it is some kinda foxsnake ...maybe a mix still but no pituophis has a split anal plate that I am aware of. With all the mixing and matching going on with these snakes...I think the patterns, odd as they are should at this point be ignored and the anal plate be investigated. I can't see the end of the snout either...that would help....if it is rounded...it is elaphe...if it is pointed....pituophis....Lori's bad photography is the cause of all this debate..not either of our ignorance...lol
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telefrag · #12 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 05:47 AM

figures it would be all about the anal plate [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]

yah, its hard to tell what is what anymore with some of the western pits.

Ive been doing the best I can to breed locale's that are close enough together.

hey, know anyone with a female from FT davis (W.TX)?

I have plenty of tarrant counties, and midland/odessa bulls.

Lori, can you get a Cloacal shot?
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JuliusSqueezer · #13 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 05:54 AM

no idea...by the time they make it to Georgia...you are lucky if whoever has them even knows it's a bullsnake.

Thanks for the compliment on the pine...he is the one I just adopted from J Nester out of the adoption forum. Sweet lil booger once ya get past all the bluff and fluff lol.
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JuliusSqueezer · #14 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 06:10 AM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> im glad there is another pit afficianado on here with me </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

LOL I'm almost reluctant to mention this here on RTB but overall I prefer Colubrids and pit vipers to boids because of where I live and I get a much bigger thrill out of what I can catch out herping then what I can find in petstores and pituophis is a definate favorite.

But...my collection is more zoolike than project based. I like to have a lot of variety. Right now my only pituophis are:
1.0 albino bull (Locale unknown)
0.1 normal bull (Brown head- light colored...but exact locale unknown)
1.0 sandiego gopher
0.1 Great Basin Gopher
0.1 albino pacific gopher
0.1 pine x bull (locale of parents unknown)
0.0.1 Northern Pine ...will probe when settled and feeding
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#15 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 06:34 AM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>BTW.. This is not my snake. I am trying to help someone out and am looking for more input from others on it also. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>
Lori's bad photography is the cause of all this debate..not either of our ignorance...lol </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Ignorance ?? LOL Umm.. Note that the snake is NOT mine as I mentioned in my first post on it lol.

I'll ask them to get a vent pic for ya also anyways. Person who owns it is on one of my lizard email rings and asked for some help basically is all. Colubrids are not my strong point ya know lol

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telefrag · #16 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 07:00 AM

>><TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> im glad there is another pit afficianado on here with me </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
>>
>>LOL I'm almost reluctant to mention this here on RTB but overall I prefer Colubrids and pit vipers to boids because of where I live and I get a much bigger thrill out of what I can catch out herping then what I can find in petstores and pituophis is a definate favorite.
>>
>>But...my collection is more zoolike than project based. I like to have a lot of variety. Right now my only pituophis are:
>>1.0 albino bull (Locale unknown)
>>0.1 normal bull (Brown head- light colored...but exact locale unknown)
>>1.0 sandiego gopher
>>0.1 Great Basin Gopher
>>0.1 albino pacific gopher
>>0.1 pine x bull (locale of parents unknown)
>>0.0.1 Northern Pine ...will probe when settled and feeding

yah, you have some pits alright.good diverse group.
Im just looking forward to when the lineoticolis complex is better represented in captivity.
but, im not going to hold my breath on that.

I just have 4.3 bulls

and im working on getting a pair of black pines.

but northern pines are one of my all time favorite snakes.
I used to have a few normals,
and I had 1.1 patternless southerns, 2 albino southerns and several hets, but that was back in the early 90's, wish I hadnt of let them go on to other people.

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ChrisRezendes · #17 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 11:03 PM

Telefrag is right. The first words to pop into my head upon sight of the pic were "Great Basin". There's a small chance I could be wrong about the ssp, but that is definitely a Gopher. It's most definitely not a Vulpina of any ssp. That could easily be ruled out by the head shot and the pattern. Vulpina has a similar pattern, but it's readily distinguishable from that of most Gophers, this one included. Sir Julius, take another look at the head. You've definitely more experience than I, and I'd imagine you've had both Foxes and Bulls. Just take another look at the head, you'll see [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
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ChrisRezendes · #18 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 11:12 PM

We can settle this by having the Lori's friend check the vent. The vent is really one of my favorite forms of identification. If the anal plate is divided, it's a Vulpina, if the anal plate is single, it's a PM. Also, I should point out that PM's have very strongly keeled scales. Vulpina (as well as E. Guttata) have weekly keeled scales.
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ChrisRezendes · #19 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 11:24 PM

BTW, It's not Lori's fault her pics come out that way. What happended was she took a couple of pics of me, and my ugly face totally ruined her camera [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_cool.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img]
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ChrisRezendes · #20 (**permalink**) 10-23-2002, 12:07 AM

Bump. I'm too stubborn (stupid?) to let this post die. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img]
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