Unidentified Ratsnake

BWSmith · #1 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 08:18 PM

Now we know that it is an Elaphe, but what kind? We are stumped! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]

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rar · #2 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 08:47 PM

if im not mistaken thats a Great Plains Ratsnake (Elaphe emoryi) thought, i could be mistaken.

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#3 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 08:55 PM

It looks like a Texas rat snake to me, although knowing where you're from, I guess it could be a grey/black intergrade?

Also, an excellent series of pics/views for aiding identification! Bravo! Not hard to tell when a field herper is posting the pics [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
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BWSmith · #4 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 09:01 PM

Here is the info from the guy who found it in Eatonton, GA.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> It's definitely Elaphe. A couple of things I've noticed...

1. It was very well fed and in a business district nowhere near where it should be (concrete sidewalks and manicured lawns)
2. No markings on top of the head shouldn't exist at all.
3. No post-ocular stripe indicates guttata
4. Striped tail indicates guttata
5. If it were obsoleta it would be solid black by the time it was this size ... this one has no black.
6. When you hold a black rat it tends to wrap around your hand, while guttata tends to stay straightened out and just try to crawl. This one behaves more like guttata in that sense, it doesn't hold onto your arm like a tree branch the way obsoleta does... (I know, that's not scientific, but I think worth noting)

I'm gonna guess it's either:

1. black rat x corn cross (which should still have some head markings)
2. escaped great plains rat?
3. escaped texas rat?
4. some anerythristic or mixed up guttata?
5. *insert your guess here*
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

After spending most of the day running through every book we have and looking at every feature, it is very hard to tell. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]
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rar · #5 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 09:26 PM

check out this link, and click on 'great planes ratsnake (Elaphe guttata emoryi)':

http://www.coasttocoast.co.uk/live-stock.htm#ratsnakes

it says its a subspecies of corn, and it has the exact markings.

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#6 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 09:29 PM

no markings on the head shouldn't exist at all?? Bull...the fox snake has no head markings...neither does the Texas rat snake .

One of the distinguishing characteristics of the Texas rat snake is dark blotches considerably larger than the space between them, thus my initial guess of Texas rat (plus the coloration is very close)

#6 is an interesting point...the anterior belly pattern does look kinda guttata...
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#7 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 09:30 PM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>check out this link, and click on 'great planes ratsnake (Elaphe guttata emoryi)':

http://www.coasttocoast.co.uk/live-stock.htm#ratsnakes

it says its a subspecies of corn, and it has the exact markings.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Which therefore should include the 'spearhead' pattern between the eyes, which this specimen lacks....
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BWSmith · #8 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 10:29 PM

Here is the reply form John Jenson, Head on Nongame Wildlife for Georgia Department of Natural Resources (and just a really cool guy [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ):

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I agree - that doesn't look like a native Elaphe, unless it is a hybrid guttata x obsoleta (which I doubt). Probably would be best not to release it, just in case. Do you have any thoughts about what else to do with it? Any nature centers around you that would take it?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Another herping buddy of ours has found a few babies that appear to be the same species (or subspecies) in a different area. Maybe GA has a new subspecies [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]
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BWSmith · #9 (**permalink**) 08-23-2002, 11:01 PM

Riley,

no markings on the head should not exist in native GA Elaphe.
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MED04 · #10 (**permalink**) 08-24-2002, 12:08 AM

Brian - Brett says it's a grey ratsnake and he has a male in the snake room if ya wanna compare it with him.
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JuliusSqueezer · #11 (**permalink**) 08-25-2002, 05:01 AM

Brian....patterns vary...I have seen and collected grey rats with all sorts of pattern variations and have noticed that they seem to differ a lot by locations. I caught a male grey rat very close to that one in south alabama near the florida line. I didn't think they even ranged there. I still have him. He does have a darker colored head but no head markings. Most of the grey rats that I have caught in and around the Atlanta area here have all been much more contrasty than this one with more uniform saddles. Who knows...maybe 3 generations ago a black rat or cornsnake got in the gene pool...It happens. and results are not predictable.....it could even be something as strange as a corn x black rat bred with a grey x black rat and then the offspring bred with a pure grey rat or some other mutt......or any combination and who knows how far back down the line. It is closer to a grey rat than anything else though and dwelling on it too much further will only cause you a headache. Ratsnakes are little sluts and they aren't too picky about what they hook up with.
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telefrag · #12 (**permalink**) 08-25-2002, 05:04 AM

I have seen Grey Rats that look much like that one.

Would not suprise me if some yellow, or black rat intergrade was present in this one.

Could be a genetic thing as well.
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BWSmith · #13 (**permalink**) 08-26-2002, 04:38 AM

Gray Rat was my first instinct. But I don't believe it to be the case. This was found WELL outside the range of Gray Rats (According to DNR). Emanuel County is the Northernmost range (on this side of the state, there are populations hugging the AL border). Northern Putnam County is where this specimen was located, that is about 125 miles north of the range. But, just in case there is new information, I have sent an email to the state herpetologist. GA recently completed a Herp Atlas and new information may be available. But the information I have from GA Department of Natural Resources puts this specimen about 125 miles north and about 125 East of established range. Some overlap is bound to happen, but that is a long crawl. My vote is not for a Gray Rat.

As for crossbreeding, it is hard to tell. It has some odd features. According to Department of Natural Resources:
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> that doesn't look like a native Elaphe, unless it is a hybrid guttata x obsoleta (which I doubt). </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
Unless we find more exactly like this one with information to where they were collected, it is going to be hard to tell.
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#14 (**permalink**) 08-27-2002, 03:04 PM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>Riley,
no markings on the head should not exist in native GA Elaphe.</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

He didn't say GA [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
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BWSmith · #15 (**permalink**) 08-27-2002, 03:10 PM

I know, I should have done the little () thing you see in quotes for clarity, even if he wasn't. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif[/img] But when it comes from John, it is always GA..............
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JuliusSqueezer · #16 (**permalink**) 08-27-2002, 08:05 PM

It is a ratsnake....and it is grey....it's a grey ratsnake...don't argue with me LOL. The one I have here, I caught in south Alabama just north of Mobile. It looks a lot like the one you have there except yours has more defined and uniform typical elaphe saddles.
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Kim · #17 (**permalink**) 08-27-2002, 09:06 PM

I'm going to take a shot at this and say a Black Rat for a couple reasons. One, The Black Rat range fits perfectly with your location. In the Northeast, the black rat tends to be very dark but further south and west they are grey to almost brown. The other is the white lips and throat extending from the mental scale partially down the ventral scales. Typical of Black rats.

A Black rat and Corn Hybrid looks much more Brownish Gold with rust saddles and definite head markings (I can send you a picture of a Black Rat /Corn hybrid). They also retain the gold of a corn snake eye rather than the dark of the black.

The saddles are the confusing part and the picture of the Great Plains rat snake made me agree at first that it was indeed a Great Plains. However the range troubles me ---This snake overlaps with other Elaphes only above the western part of Louisianna. Kind of a distance to stretch it to Georgia.

On thing to consider, the Grey, Yellow and Black all overlap right through the middle of Georgia from the southeast up to the very northwest. Because of this, there is an intergrade--the greenish rat-- often olive to grey. In paricular the Gray and Yyellow rat snake together produce a grey snake with prominant saddles that remain to adulthood.

My guess is still the Black. Having said all that, it should be obvious to you that I am no rat snake expert! I have only owned the yellow rat snake. Just thought I would pass along some information that I have. If you ever do find out, Please post it. I am dying to know.

Good Luck. Kim
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JuliusSqueezer · #18 (**permalink**) 08-27-2002, 09:32 PM

Whereever there is farmland, there can be gray ratsnakes or any other barn dwelling ratsnake....range means nothing to animal wedged between 2 bales of hay on the back of a truck being shipped from state to state. Brian says there are no gray ratsnakes in the Atlanta area. I had horses growing up and there were always large gray ratsnakes in and around the stables where I kept my horse. I have caught hundreds of them.....but just since this subject came up...thinking back....have always caught them in or around barns where hay has been shipped in often.

BWSmith · #19 (**permalink**) 08-27-2002, 09:32 PM

The black Rats around here are REALLY black. Who knows, maybe an escaped Great Plains bred with a black or something screwed up. I am still fairly sure that it is no Black Rat.

BTW Jules, Gray rats are found in Southern AL, but not Atlanta. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]
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BWSmith · #20 (**permalink**) 08-27-2002, 09:42 PM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>range means nothing to animal wedged between 2 bales of hay on the back of a truck being shipped</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

There are bananas at Publix, too. But that doesn't mean I go looking for Palm Vipers! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

_________________
I think I may have had my head down one too many Gopher Tortoise Burrows .......................................... And there are no Gray Ratsnakes in Atlanta!

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