Telefrag, I need you to check this out

[Anypituophis]

I was looking over some books on the description of bullsnakes, and discovered something. My original "bull" is not like the ones you have given to me. The 3 biggest things I have noticed are: 1. My original's head is almost solid speckled black, where as the rest you have given me are almost a solid yellow with very few black specks. 2. The huge size difference. My original I have had for over three years, yet is only just shy of 5 feet and a whole lot thinner than the female bull you gave me. 3. The head is shaped differently. There is a huge difference from the back of the head to the neck in him as compared to the three bulls I now have. I wanted to see what you make of it. I will repost the pic for you.

I need to take a new one, as his head is now almost solid black. Could he maybe, possibly be a Louisiana Pine? I know it's pretty unrealistic to think so, I was just curious. The picture does what i am trying to describe no justice.

[Anypituophis]

Here's another pic

[telefrag]

well, most louisiana pines i've seen have pretty light colored heads.

I'd say its definately a bull, but I would also say its probably from the more northern part of the range, bullsnakes (ala P.cantifer) range from texas all the way over to Colorado up to Canada.
So naturally, some areas may produce smaller or darker animals.

That pictures looks ALOT like bulls i've seen in Minnesota when I lived there.
But it also looks alot like a few bulls I have seen in Kansas...

tough call.

any info on where it came from when you obtained it?

[Anypituophis]

It's wild caught from Alvarado Texas to be exact. I was told to cound the body blotches. 37-39, it's a Pine, 44 and over, it's a bull. I thinks it's a bull. Just dark.

[telefrag]

That wouldnt suprise me, i've seen some in TX even that look like that.

its so hard with bull's because of their wide range, its sometimes hard to determine on looks alone.

[JuliusSqueezer]

Maybe it's both I've never seen a Louisiana pine x bull but I used to have a northern pine x bull. She had some funny little flower shaped blotches. She didn't look like your snake really but there is something kinda pinesnakeish about yours that I just can't put a finger on....but for the most part looks like a bullsnake. *shrug*

[JuliusSqueezer]

Something to consider with animals that naturally cross in the wild when ranges overlap, it doesn't have to necessarily be a 50/50 split. pinesnake blood may or may not have entered the equasion at any given point in the family tree. Maybe even multiple times here and there. This could account for some of the diversity.

We have a similar situation out here on the east coast with yellow ratsnakes. Good luck finding a true yellow rat. When they cross with a black rat (and they do quite often cross with black rats) You get a greenish ratsnake. It's pretty much like a yellow except it's kinda oliveish green more than yellow. You can see a good bit of green in most of the wild yellows you find. Now and then a pretty yellow/orange pops up...come to think of it...could be some cornsnake mixed in those lol...who knows? Sometimes it's difficult to pinpoint exactly what something is.

[Anypituophis]

This is true. I think the head of that Bull is what got me. Plus it's lack of size (barely 5 feet at 4 years old) even though it eats like a giant. I feed my snakes every week. So I am at a loss. But nonetheless, I love him just the same.