Western Hognose Bite

[Schwartz]

Thought This Was Cool, Had To Share.

http://www.herpnet.net/bite/

[Dbutton]

That is the weirdest thig I have ever seen. First of all I have never seen a hognose snake bite anyone be it a feeding response or defensive. Secondly I have been bitten by nonpoisonous snakes literally thousands of time and have never had any kind of swelling from it other than a little right at the puncture sites, let alone what that guy's hand looked like. That swelling looked like something you would see from a pygmy rattler bite then from a hognose snake or any other nonpoisonous one for that matter. That guy must have had some sort of allergic reaction to the bite of something to have had that much swelling.
The reason I looked at this post in the first place was because it said hognose bite.


David

[BWSmith]

After about 3-5 minutes the snake continued to chew so I dunked it under cool tap water which caused it to quickly release it's grip.

5 minutes? Uhh, just so there is not any misconceptions, HOGNOSE SNAKES ARE VENOMOUS. Granted they are rear fanged and generally not considered harmful to humans. They are, none the less, rear fanged snakes with functional venom glands. It looks to me like an allergic reaction to the venom. Not uncommon. Afterall, some people are allergic to bee stings. Heck, I have gotten envenomation type symptoms from an Eastern Garter Snake bite (also carries toxins). This type of reaction is not uncommon from prolonged bites from Heterodon.

From Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere - Campbell, Lamar
"Bites can cause painful swelling and discoloration with persistant oozing fromt he fang punctures. In one reported case, pain and swelling began within a few minutes. Bruising involved the bitten foot and ankle, swelling persisted for three weeks, and full recovery took almost three months."

[Dbutton]

Hmmm, never realized that they were rear fanged till now. Guess you learn something new every day. I only kept one for a few weeks over my 30 years of keeping snakes and never really paid much attention to them other than a quick glance at shows and a few I have run into in NC while herping. Guess that is why you are the hots guy BWSmith. Though I do know that there are other rear fanged snakes that are harmless to humans here in the US like the lyre snake and brown snake I jsut never even thought about hognoses.

[Dbutton]

Oh yea, one other thing. I have never let a snake gnaw on me for 5 minutes either so that may have something to do with it.

[BWSmith]

Most of the envenomations that caused serious reactions from Heterodon are when the keeper let the snake chew for at least a minute. There are actually many rear fangs that noone really notices such as Ringnecks. Noone really notices because most are not inclined to bite and since there have been no fatal cases, study on their venom and its effects are sparse.

Just as a side note to screw with your brain, ALL Asian Ratsnakes (formerly Elaphe) contain Alpha-Neurotoxins and Cobra 3-Finger Toxins in their saliva. This includes common pet snakes such as Radiated Ratsnakes and Beauty Snakes

The study of rear fanged species is growing by the day. Heck, even Asian Garter snakes (Natrix sp) are true rear fangs. Most of them cannot really harm a human too bad. But it is good to be aware of in case of an allergic reaction. This is particularly true of people that have other venom or poison allergies such as bees or Poison Ivy. Just another random thought on allergies, while I am on the topic. It appears that I am allergic to Thamnophis toxins, but Poison Ivy has no effect on me. Just goes to show that allergies are unpredictable and care should be taken with anything that has that potential.

[CRG]

Some guy over on the Kingsnake forum got a great pic of a hoggies fangs when it was eating. They are very tiny but they are very real fangs. I love my little hoggie he is a very easy going snake I couldnt imagine getting bit by him.

[farmergirl]

I used to have an Eastern Hognose. We found him tangled in some bird netting and I cut him loose. Decided to keep him for a couple months so my oldest daughter and I could study him. If I remember correctly I read that it is actually their saliva that contains the toxins and not true venom glands. Once the rear fangs punture, the toxins are allowed to enter the blood stream. Please correct me if I'm wrong BW. Usually a bite from a hognose would result in nothing or itching for a day or two. Some people are however allergic to the saliva toxins and more serious results could occur. Just like some people can be allergic to bee stings and can have deadly results, always be careful when handling even rear fanged snakes.

On the positive side however, I would have to say that hognose snakes are fascinating creatures. When we first stumbled onto it I had never seen or even heard of one before and after cutting it loose (didn't even know if it was a venomous snake or not at the time, yes sometimes I can be stupidly brave) it scared the #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& out of us when I approached the glass tank I put it in and the snake began hissing very loudly. I began immediate research, learned what it was and even began handling it without being bitten, which usually really #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^&#$%^& the snake off. We went frog hunting at night and feeding this snake was even more fascinating. The frogs would bloat up and you could actually hear the rear fangs puncture the frog. The snake would consume a large toad that looked larger than possible for that snake to swallow. Sometimes we even heard the frog croak a time or two after being completely swallowed (that part was a little sad because I love frogs.) After a couple months of observation I returned him to the wild.

[BWSmith]

If I remember correctly I read that it is actually their saliva that contains the toxins and not true venom glands.

Close, but a little backwards. They do have true venom glands, they don't have true fangs. The "fangs" are not hollow or grooved, just enlarged. And you are correct that the venom enters the body through the saliva via the punctures of the enlarged teeth and that these fangs are used primarily for puncturing toads. My understanding is that the venom is not IN the saliva (as is with Garters), but is excreted into the saliva during an envenomation. Since the only envenomations that I have come across have been feeding responses rather than defensive bites, it stands to reason that the venom is for use in securing and/or digesting prey. As you alluded to, the prey is sometimes swallowed alive. So my theory is that the venom may aid in neutralizing the bufotoxins found in their favorite prey, toads. But I have not read anything to support that. Just a theory.