Interview with Herman Stöckl

natas · #1 (**permalink**) 05-29-2002, 04:37 AM

Ok its confirmed. Herman Stöckl of www.boa-constrictors.com has given us the OK to do a interview with him. Herman is well known for his knowledge and keeping of pure bred and rare Boa Constrictors.

So here's your chance to ask him questions! I am also looking for someone who can help me conduct this interview.

Some ideas on questions:
Got a specefic question on locales of boa's or debate on which species is which in the boa constrictor family.

I can't wait to have this interview on the site....so lets get some good questions and anyone interested in helping run this interview post away!!!

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trinitywolf · #2 (**permalink**) 05-29-2002, 04:46 AM

Hey Shane...do we need someone that can speak German or does Herman speak English?
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natas · #3 (**permalink**) 05-29-2002, 04:48 AM

Herman told me that if would be easier to do it via email opposed to phone because of his english. He said its alot easier to do it email for him [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

So anyone that can help doing this via email in English or German would help
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Bry · #4 (**permalink**) 05-29-2002, 04:55 AM

I know that Michelle knows German, I think she's pretty fluent, but I'm not too sure how fluent she is though. She might be willing to help.

Bry
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impermanentrage · #5 (**permalink**) 05-29-2002, 05:25 AM

If i were to pose a question to Mr. Stockl it would be in regards to his "pure breeding". I have question that is left unanswered on his site, or at least from what i've read. This question would be as follows: Why is it unacceptable to interbreed sub-specific BC's who share the same geographical locales? In Colombia as well as other areas of S. America BCI's and BCC's have shared territories and i find it difficult , at best, to believe that these animals don't intergrade, or share genetics via copulation. I underrstand the disapproval of BCi's from meso-america being bred to other BC's from certain geographical regions of S. America , sense this would not occur w/out human interference via selective breeding. This being said , i realize it to be a somewhat controversial subject and it isn't meant to be a reflection of any ill-will towards the folks who hold great value or belief in ensuring that BC's maintain diversified genetics without loss to overall sub-specific, locality specific, or morphological representation. I am simply curious as to whether or not there is a decided consensus towards what is , or isn't, acceptable, at least on a sub-specific level.

Thanx,
Alex Loomis
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cb76 · #6 (**permalink**) 05-29-2002, 06:00 AM

actually south american bcc's and bci's do not share the same territory!
i am not talking about man made borders either.

i am talking about bci and bcc being seperated by water, altitude, various mountain ranges, plain ol' distance, weather, and food sources.

thats why they are what they are!

they are subspecies of boa constrictor, but you can also see how different they all are in body shape, head shape, markings and colorations, etc..... nature made them different. science just classified it.

even if the animals are in the same subspecie- like bci for example- you still have very different boas showing very different traits- that evolved by being seperated by all the same stuff listed above!

look at the insular boas- like the hogg island, isla de la bajia, compared to colombians.... very different, but all bci!

look at the 2 types in colombia alone- you have northern bci and southern bcc!
while the northern is plentiful, the southern is not.

back to the hogg islands, extinct! but plentiful in captivity.

what about the corn island dwarf boa, also a bci, very rare in the wild- rare in captivity too!

this is why we all have pay attention and stop crossing locales.....pretty soon there will be none left- and all that will be here are mutts and crap that are on the market!!!

not to mention these animals have different ways of doing things- ex is mating. one locale may emmit one type of pheromone (sp??) that may not be recognized by the other, they all have different probe depths and different penis shapes and textures!

thats natures way to stop crosses. but man still makes it happen...........

anyways, enough of my babble

shane!!! an interview with hermann would kick #$%^&#$%^&#$%^&!!!!!

i'll think of a few questions for you!

by the way, he does speak english, mabe not as good & reads it too. i have spoken to him several times via email.

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impermanentrage · #7 (**permalink**) 05-30-2002, 06:50 AM

Well, that would explan a great deal. But somehow, i'm still not convinced that there are no intergrades. As you said, plain ol' geographical obstacles are what create locality specific sub-species, but political borders do not. I'm having a very hard time seeing that BCI's, as widespread as they are (and i am not speaking of the insular varieties here which i believe are entitled to their own sub-species) , do not intergrade naturally w/ BCC's from other regions. Do gunman stop brazilian , ecuadoran, and venezuelan BCC's at a check point somewhere?
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impermanentrage · #8 (**permalink**) 05-30-2002, 07:02 AM

From Dave and Tracy Barker:

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> This widespread boa constrictor subspecies occurs on the west coast of Mexico as far north as Hermosillo, Sonora, and on the east coast north to southern Tamaulipas. The species is widespread through the lower elevations of tropical southern Mexico. It is widespread and common in every country in Central America. From eastern Panama the range extends north in Colombia to the Sierra de Santa Marta, and south through coastal Colombia into Ecuador, south as far as Guayaquil. There at the southern extreme of the range, it intergrades with the Tumbes boa, Boa constrictor longicauda and Peruvian coastal boa, Boa constrictor ortonii. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

So i find it difficult at best, to believe that they (BCI) ,at the very least don't occasionally intergrade w/ BCC's.
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impermanentrage · #9 (**permalink**) 05-30-2002, 07:06 AM

Also, i'm sorry if this comes off as more than just a simple disagreement, it's not meant as such, for i am simply looking for answers. I am aware that Hermann is one of the most acclaimed experts on BC's in the world. And i by no means am trying to dispute any work that he's doing, or any others. So i apologize in advance if i come off as rather abrasive or confrontational. That wasn't the impression i was trying to make.
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cb76 · #10 (**permalink**) 06-03-2002, 09:47 AM

no problems at all dude!

i wondered the same thing for a long time. i still do.......

now a few people have a few answeres for certain species n stuff.

can it happen- yes. people do it all the time. but in the wild- not likely, for these reasons and the fact that alot of these territorries dont over lap.

most bci is located in ca- that alone will stop cross breeding!

i didnt say that there arent intergrades, because there are (or some are still trying to prove)
like the southern colombian boa, bcc, is a possible intergrade with the peruvian bcc. if there were no man made territory, these would share some (very little) of the same habitat. same with the venezuelan.

as for hermann being the "worlds authority", i dont know about that. he is definitly the man though- and i totally love the idea of keeping things pure! he was the first to introduce me to that.

there are plenty of doctors, such gordon scheutt who are out there now finding differences out things on a molecular level, seperating boa constrictor subspecies. so they do have more than visual differences.

why this happens- i have no clue, but i do believe in keeping it pure!

man is killing what mother nature took millions of years to build. yes there are various subspecies of boa constrictor- PROVEN ON MANY LEVELS- EVEN MOLECULAR.

why they stay in their habitat, who knows, but it sure has something to do with all these barriers. you can also argue the factwhy doesnt the bcc cross with the bc occidentalis- they just dont- because of the natural barriers and they ways they developed over time!

as far as quoting the barkers- thats just for imperator. that has nothing to do with the bcc range. its not even close to most bcc.

**something else, jut for bci**
as far as that being imperator- you can see the differences in them alone- starting from the sonoran desert (which i own plenty of....) going all the way down to colombia. every time yu hit a new pass or a range of rock- there is a difference in appearance of these boas- i believe in keeping them seperate too! there are 4 different kinds of mexican bci alone. every time you move past a country you can litterally see the differences.

there are 4 different types of boa alone in peru- one or 2 appear to be a cross, but all are deserving in their subspecific status. you have longicuada, which has a very big penis, one of natures way again to stop crossing with other boas, you have bcc, you have bc ortonii, and you have 1 other. i dont think its named yet.

you can check out vin russos site. he actually goes to these places and sees these boas himself and helped identify the longicuada. you can also ask him these questions too!

awww........its too late and i kinda went off on a babble again. sorry
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most people dont even know there are different subspecies of boa constrictor!
thats the biggest reason why so many crosses in captivity!

now they are starting to realize the differences and that there are many. i think the tables will turn and most will decide to keep things pure.

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impermanentrage · #11 (**permalink**) 06-03-2002, 10:07 AM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>as far as quoting the barkers- thats just for imperator. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Well i realized that. It was merely an example to illustrate a point, in particular where BCI's , and their distributions are concerned.
I suppose when it comes to Mr Stockl my opinion begins to waiver because he has been quoted as saing that a salvadoran BCI mixed with a honduran BCI is crossbreeding in his opinion. Now c'mon dude! Do you actually subscribe to that?! That just sounds plain ridiculous to me. In all actuality i find it a greater crime to intergrade between insular varieties of BCI with the continental variety than if someone actually took a BCI and crossed it with a BCC. Personally i don't put much faith into sub-specific classification, as i find it contrary to what the system of binomial nomenclature was designed for. So yes, i do believe in locality specifics, but no, i don't believe in sub-specific classification. Unless of course we are going to actually begin classifying these animals as seperate species of the same genera. Yet that's an entirely different discussion. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

_________________
"We are destined to become the most well informed society to ever die from our own ignorance."
Edward Abbey

cb76 · #12 (**permalink**) 06-04-2002, 07:42 AM

how could you not believe in subspecific status???

you can plainly see the differences with your own eyes on that matter. usually the locale thing is what people have the problem with.

i do agree that the elsavador x honduran cross is wrong! even though they are bci- doesnt mean they are the same.

take the mexican boa (bci) there are 3-4 different kinds, all from different parts of the same country! are you gonna tell me that they are all the same!!??

i own several and i can tell you that they are not! and this is happening with the same genus and the same locale!

for what ever reason- nature kept these diverse- does an interfrade occure within what i am talking about- sure, but not so dramatically to keep everything in its own uniform. phenotypically you can see these distinct differences!

for that reason alone we should not cross. because what will be left.

one boa grows up on the east side of the mountain, the other grows up on the west. the west has all the rainfall and is covered with lush jungles and filled with all types of potential prey! this boa through time developes to be a very strong huge creature. it is dependeant on a higher humidity and the coverage of the forest.

the other boa on the other side of the mountain gets a significantly less amount of precipitation, the land is more bare, arid. desert. the boa evolves over time to be a smaller than than its cousin. because of the lack of food, coverage, etc.... it has turned into a browner orange color to match its surroundings. for these reasons alone we should keep them seperate!!! just because they are in the same subspecies, and in the same locale- just in different parts- they have adapted and developed their own unique pheno and genotypes.

granted- when you look at alot of the boas from CA- they look the same, but have you been to central america and seen these actuall differences for your self??? not the hobby boas that every one has been crossing and placing on the market- seeing these animals in their own enviornment.

i totally agree on the insular species, but i also think that the CA impertors should be kept as pure as possible, by locale! even for the subtlest of differences! wether we see them or not.

some are very rare and are dwarfed- only growing to 40" as adults while others are mid sized animals attaing 5-6 ft in length- then you still have others who are massive beasts who readily attain a size of greater than 9 feet! all within a narrow strip of land, all to be in the subspecies of imperator. some are very orange resembling the hogg island boas while a few miles down, they are extremely black resembling bc occidentalis, but go further south you have a very nice golden brown variety, that has alot of yellow in the back round color. go further down- some are hypomelanistic!!! naturally!!!

most of this can be found in mexico alone.

some CA boas are grey/ blue, most have a red/brown look to them on a dark back round color, but alot have their own unique patterns with the saddles IN DESIGN AND NUMBER.

all can be found in different locales in CA.

i dont claim to know all, but i own a rather significant collection numbering in the 90's of locality specific boids, from these qualified hepetologists and true locale breeders- and i see the difference, no matter how small it may be. some i see no differences.

there are alot of qualified REAL HERPETOLOGISTS studying these issues. i believe what they say because they have proof and they actually study the wild animals, on the other hand- i dont take what breeders, no matter how long they have been doing this, say in this matter. most have nothing but imperator crosses and have never owned anything specific to anything locale! you cant make these assumptions based oin anything in the american market- simple!

we ourselves will be contributing to changes in snakes evolutionary wise! with all the land we destroy and with all the captive boas.

this is why i believe locale based differences should be kept the way they are! because mother nature, in all her glory made them this way [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

_________________
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<a href="http://photo.redtailboa.net/cb76">my photo album</a>

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impermanentrage · #13 (**permalink**) 06-04-2002, 08:22 AM

And i'm not disagreeing w/ you in particular, insomuch as the puritanically cynical viewpoint of "these animals will be extinct in nature soon, so we should emulate that in a cage" .Which IMO invariably leads to inbreeding, or at least a lack of diversity. I believe you will begin to notice as time goes on an increasingly larger amount of wild populations of BCC being pushed into Colombian BCI territory. Of course this is pure conjecture on my part, but i'm confident in mankinds contemporary love affair with destruction , so i am safely making that speculation.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> how could you not believe in subspecific status???

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

As i stated previously:

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>Personally i don't put much faith into sub-specific classification, as i find it contrary to what the system of binomial nomenclature was designed for.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Bi : Meaning two.

Nomial: Meaning name

Nomenclature: Meaning a system of structure or order for classification.

It's not called trinomial classification for a reason. If someone wishes to classify by calling a particular geographical varient a locality specific representative of a given species, than so be it. Otherwise? Stick to the traditional use, because a particular race is the stuff of determinism,and it has no place in biological reality. These are all BC's, and it (ssp) has become quite ridiculous in my opinion. We don't call Swedes Homo sapien nordensis, nor do we call humans from the Ivory Coast Homo sapien melaninsis do we?
I'm sorry for bringing the human element into the equation, for it's really not fair, but you get my point i presume. If humans, being seperated from one another for over a million years over vast oceans cannot be givin subspecific classification , than how can we justify an animal that shares the same continent and is not only capable of intergrading, but even happens w/out human interference .
Also, there is ultimately nothing natural about putting a snake in a cage. That doesn't mean i do not understand your viewpoint[s] , however for the layperson simply lookin for a "pet"????......hmmmmm [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif[/img]
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cb76 · #14 (**permalink**) 06-05-2002, 05:35 AM

lol!
thats a good one. i didnt expect that at all, but i see your point more now because of that. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

i agree, humans are extremely destructive creatures.

if by freak chance all the bcc move into bci locales, they will do so naturally. not by the hand of man. (even if we do destroy their habitats)

i say keep it how it is. if anything happens then- then go for it. know what i mean.

there are very distinct physical appearences that occure by locale- who knows, maybe it will be reclassified, or stay the same. i cant stick to the traditional use of these classifications becaue i can see there are differences, even if subtle that occure by locale- and believe me- it definitly has a place in biological reality!

this is exactly why there are qualified herpetologist and teams of doctors looking into these issues. if we all kept the "traditional" style of thinking and lableing, we would still be in the stone age. i thnk there will be a trinomial one day.

i totally hope that humans and nature can live together and things will change.

right now, i see a small rising in the locaity specific animals- i truely hope this will continue. there are enough bloodlines out there to insure genetic diversity forever basically, but i too agree with you on the fact that humans are selfish and destructive creatures.

all we can do is hope right! make change on a smaller level and hope it spreads.

anyways- that was a good shot with homo sapien [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] i liked it alot!
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impermanentrage · #15 (**permalink**) 06-05-2002, 06:14 AM

heh man, like i said, i agree with you (and to lesser degree mr stockl) on the principle involved for the most part , i just find the whole thing rather confusing at times, to say the least. I feel that zoological institutions, museums, etc., should do their best to represent these animals as they exist in a particular range. Perhaps that is why so many breeders should consider creating a "pedigree" system for these captive bred specimens. But beyond that, who knows?

I'm just old school when it comes to taxonomy. for example, you wont find me calling Crotalus horridus anything other than what it is. I might call one variety a "canebrake" or another a "timber", but you generally wont find me calling one a sub-species over the other. I jus think it's simpler that way.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> but i too agree with you on the fact that humans are selfish and destructive creatures.

</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

And just intellectually capable enough to f@*k ourselves , and the rest of the planet up real good. When does a species develop cognition to the point of regressing to stupidity? To much dependence on our intelligence and technology ultimately leads to ignorance IMO. As ironic as that seems.

_________________
"We are destined to become the most well informed society to ever die from our own ignorance."
Edward Abbey

cb76 · #16 (**permalink**) 06-05-2002, 07:41 AM

i totally agree with a pedigree system!

i have a sheet that i will supply i the near future with all my animals i sell. it will have everything on it, including pics and a family tree- as far back as i can go. i get all the info from the breeders anyways, i dont mind pasing it on.

i am trying to make it as simple as possible, yet still provide all the necessary information.

i have several in the works- i am just trying to see what works best. plus i need my own logos and stuff.

i agree about being too dependant on technology! on many levels it will be our ruin.

this has been an interesting conversation! i am glad we had it. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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natas · #17 (**permalink**) 06-06-2002, 04:26 PM

Anymore questions guys?
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SnakePool · #18 (**permalink**) 06-06-2002, 05:05 PM

I have a question in regards to the Peruvian (tumbes) boa. Why is this particular boa so unheard of in the herp community? Is it hard to breed? Are the clutches small? Who would be the best person to buy a pair from in the U.S.A.?
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cb76 · #19 (**permalink**) 06-17-2002, 08:31 AM

the peruvian boa you are talking about is bc longicuada.

not as rare as one would think because they are becoming fast favorites!!! it just depends on who you talk to.

if you would like, talk to vin russo! he along with his brother and colleauge are the ones to actually find and ID the boa! he is a fellow newyorker and has a few articles he has written on his site. you can also get the original (or copies of...) reports that they did when they went to peru.

his site is: www.cuttingedgeherp.com

also, the reason why you have no luck in "finding" the tumbes boa is because most dont call them that.

bc longicuada!

i am actually getting a trio soon! i will be more than happy to supply you with the info i get from them, and the breeder.

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