A few breeding questions

[Relayer]

I wanted to get some opinions on inbreeding. On Hermans site he there is pros and cons with both and states that it more than likely happens in the wild quite a bit. Bad genes if they are present can be passed. On the other hand if you have a healthy stable snake breeding could produce an even stronger snake.

I was also looking for opinions on the exotic market in general. I have some snakes that I will like to breed in a few years, all bcc. Obviously I will not be able to keep them all so some profit is in mind. With that said I do not keep snakes to make money. My snakes have the best of everything and will continue to, I love snakes. What I will hopefully produce will be Iquito Peruvians, Suriname, and Guyanan. No crossbreeds I don't believe in it.
I don't wish to make this post seem like I want to pump out babies for a living or that I might sell them to just anyone, on the contrary I'm afraid I might find myself being to choosey of the new owner because of the husbandry I use on mine. It seems like a tough question to ask myself. I would like to breed but will they sell or is that market already too flooded. I have a few years to wait, and thats if they'll even reproduce.

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

[Ed_r]

Inbreeding in snakes is the same as inbreeding in people. Being genetically common is not a good thing. leads to poor imune systems, missing body parts, short life span, reproductive problems. Yeah eventually you may get an albino out of it but that albino will be so screwed up healthwise it will probably not survive.
Genetic diversity leads to healthier animals and people. If one has a flaw it can be bred to a minimum with breading to other gene pools.
[addsig]

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[telefrag]

Well, sometimes you dont have much of a choice, especially when dealing with animals with very limted gene representation to begin with.
1st and 2nd generation line breeding has rarely caused any dramatic side effects.
As long as your starting out with healthy solid blood to begin with, then inbreeding siblings (provided their parents were not directly related) should have no ill effects.
While its not preferable, it can be done, just make it a point to inform anyone who obtains a snake from you that the parents are related.

Good luck.
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[talon]

I doubt anybody looking for a C.B. BCC would mind paying less money. I think when common BCI can still bring $50-60. I think you would be able to make a profit. (at least not lose money). BCC are beautiful snakes and many are still being imported. Who knows maybe you'll get a wierd morph worth thousands of dollars.
[addsig]

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

	Boa Constrictor Imperator Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor imperator). Most common is the Colombian Boa.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[JuliusSqueezer]

There really is no reason to inbreed any of these though...there are plenty of non-related animals available.....btw...Peruvians aren't BCC...they are "Boa constrictor ortonii"
[addsig]

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

[Relayer]

Thats probably debatable julius. If you look at Hermans site it says the following.


For a long time, the Peruvian redtails were
erroneously referred to as
Boa c. ortonii.

We now know, that the boas from the
region around Iquitos and Pucallpa
are Boa c. constrictor, distribution
area Peru.

I'm certainly no where near an expert but thats what it says.

I have 2 Peruvians that are from the same litter, has anyone here ever sucessfully bred like this. Like I said I won't be doing this for a few years and probably could obtain others ?
[addsig]

[cb76]

in peru to the west- you bc longicuada
in peru to the east- you have bc constrictor
in the middle you have a very, dark, very ugly boa called bc ortonii.

there is also another boa there they are trying to describe as we speak.

relayer, you can get good boas from gus rentfro, he has iquitos and pulcapa locale peruvian bcc's.

these are the same boa, just collected in these areas. gus rentfro www.riobravoreptiles.com

if you buy a snake from some one on the market, it is very likely that the its inbred anyways. especially the morphs and mutations.

start asking aboput lineages!

me personally, i buy families when i see something i like. i will buy 2.3 from a litter or 2.2 from a litter, but i will go and seek out another line to do breeding.

dont worry, if you have a beautiful boa, you will sell it quick!
i had over 120 boas this season, along with a ton of kings, corns, and 1 rosy- were gone (cept my holdbacks)(12 of them) within weeks.

when you breed, stay pure like you're already doing, and go for quality! buy good looking animals with traits you want to pass on. hold thebest back, the rest can be sold off as you sell them, or all at once to a wholesaler.

good luck
[addsig]

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[Relayer]

CB76, I got my Peruvians from Gus. He knows his <<Edited>> and has beautiful snakes, mine are very beautiful and big. I will probably get some more from him this coming year if he produces them.

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[Relayer]

Gus just emailed me and said my snakes are from unrelated wild caught parents and can't think of anyone who wouldn't consider breeding them. He said you may have problems when breeding siblings of sibling parents.

Along those lines could someone explain the F1, F2, F3 ?
[addsig]

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I'll take a shot.

Female A and Male A produce a litter.

The litter is F1

F1 female x F1 male produce a litter

the litter is F2

etc..
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[Swerve]

Will they sell?

Honestly they will all probably sell but @ different costs. The best looking animals from each litter will also sell for more then the rest. The market however does have trends, if you produce animals that match the "IN" trend you are almost guarenteed a quick sale of all your animals regardless of the price. I would guess average price for all CBB BCC is somewhere between 400-600, peruvians will often carry a higher price because they are not produced as commonly as surinams or guyanans. If you are lucky enough to produce an exceptional litter of animals consistantly word will travel and you will have NO problems moving them.

I think inbreeding is WRONG!!!! that's just my opinion [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Peruvians for the most part are BCC ... I think Oritoni is an older name that is no longer used or refers to an animal that has NOT been clearly defined @ this point. BCL and BCC are defined, and animals from Iquitos, and Pucalpa fit the BCC mold.

CE
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	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

[Swerve]

Male Peruvian BCC produced by Jim Peters



Female Peruvian BCC produced by D. Yagi

Ariives in the morning [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]


Jim, Derek, Gus, and one or tow other people or known for their exceptional peruvians. There are quite a few bloodlines around, why inbreed?
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	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

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[Relayer]

I'm aware of Gus mine came from him, who are Jim & derek and do they have websites.

btw Swerve, that female is gorgous.

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[Swerve]

Jim Peters is a small breeder out of Florida who produces some of the most brightly colored yellow Peruvians you will ever see. He produces small litters and often has a waiting list. Derek Yagi (jlyagi@aol.com) is a breeder out of California who produces numerous boas, peruvians, surinams, bci morphs, etc.... Jim is sold out for the year but Derek has 4-5 peruvians available along with 30 or so Surinams. Drop him an email he is a great guy...tell him Charles sent ya [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]

CE

	Boa Constrictor Imperator Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor imperator). Most common is the Colombian Boa.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[Swerve]

Here's a link to D's peruvians

Yagi Peruvians
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[najaboy]

One thing to touch on, which was actually covered a couple days ago, is that Peruvuan redtails are indeed BCC, and not ortonii. This isn't even a debate, as "redtails" from Peru are nothing like what was originally described in 1877 as ortonii.

Dorsal scale rows: 57-72
Dorsal saddles: ~29

_________________
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

[shady1]

that is a beautiful snake swerve
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[JuliusSqueezer]

All peruvians Naja? Peru is weird...the vast differences in the different parts of Peru seem to be home of several very distinclty different looking boas....I totally missed the Iquitos part in the first post. But even so...I wonder why these animals were lumped into the BCC ssp. They look nothing like any of the others. Personally...I think all the boas need to be scrapped and renamed. While naming a locale by an entire country is convenient for the pet trade...it is also confusing as these animals pay no attention to boundrys set by man and there are in almost ever country in South and Central America, multiple subspecies. If there are no ortonii in peru, then please explain these animals Bo-constrictors.com The author of this site is pretty convincing and the animals certainly look ortonii to me......definatly not BCC.

_________________
My Web Page

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

[najaboy]

Jules, I think you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that all Peruvians are BCC- only the "redtails". Indeed, ortonii and longicauda are both found within the borders of Peru. What I'm saying is that that Peruvian "redtails" more closely fit the description of BCC than anything. Ortonii are relatively uncommon snakes, and I'm unaware of any in US collections.

Fortunately, Dennis Sargent is working on sorting out the taxonomical mess that boas have become. Dennis is due to be published sometime in the near future, and will hopefully be able to clarify the status of the various subspecies & localities.
_________________
What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

	Boa Constrictor Constrictor Red Tail Boa Constrictor (Boa constictor constrictor). Refers to "true" red tail boas such as the Guyana and Suriname locales.

[JuliusSqueezer]

OK..Whew...Thought I had gone nuts....wait...what does my sanity have to do with anything? I can still be nuts if I wanna be with no bearing on all of this.
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