Breeder's post your stats of morphs and wildtypes

[deadliestformula]

Hey guys, after the discussion on morphs effecting Herpetoculture, and the multiple mentions of statistics. Let's do our own study. If you breed, or have bred and have PRECISE records of what was bred and the results, please post em here so we can measure up how morphs fair against normals.

1. parent types (what morph or normal or het or whatever)
2. number of living offspring
3. number of preemies
4. number of slugs
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (albino, poss het, normal, etc)

If you can think of any other relevant data, let me know. Once we get a sampling of results, I personally will figure out all the percentages and post them here! Then the debate will be settled

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[deadliestformula]

BUMP!!!
I know some of you have had a litter before...............

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[Aaron_NSBM]

ok I will play.. I have only had 2 clutches and here it goes...

First one..

1. Colombian Female Bred to Colombian x Peruvian Male
2. 5
3. 0
4. 6
5. 0
6. All Normals

Second

1. Colombian Rainbow Female Bred to Colombian Rainbow Male
2. 0
3. 0
4. 8
5. 0
6. None Where Born Besides Slugs.. Would have been normal Colombian Rainbow boas

[CraigC]

corallus caninus (amazon basin) no morphs.

March 2002 both parents WC, LTCs
7 full term, no slugs, no stills

November 2003 both parents WC, LTCs
11 full term, no slugs, no stills

December 2003 both parents WC, LTCs
6 full term, 2 premies (1 saved, 1 had to be put down), no slugs, no stills
1 died at 1-1/2 months, no appearent cause.

corallus caninus (northern) no morphs.

August 2003 female LTC WC, male CBB
2 full term, 1 still born, 3 slugs

September 2005 female LTC WC, male CBB
3 full term, 3 slugs, no stills.

Craig

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[natas]

great idea, please share this thread with others. We don't mind outsiders coming in and posting data as well

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[morti]

The only problem is: We have no way to tell if problems are the result of some genetic defect or if somebody did something wrong. If a litter of, say, hypos was tragic, who is to say that there was not some husbandry error or some situation out of the breeder's control?

	Hypomelanistic Hypomelanistic - a genetic reduction in the dark pigment Melanin.

[John_E_Dove]

1. parent types (Florescent Orange Corn Snake)
2. number of living offspring (19)
3. number of preemies (0 – N/A)
4. number of slugs (2 of 21 eggs)
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month (0)
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (Florescent Orange Corns)

1. parent types (Snow Corn Snakes)
2. number of living offspring (12)
3. number of preemies (0 - N/A
4. number of slugs (1 of 13 eggs)
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month (0)
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (Snow Corns)

1. parent types (Normal Miami Phase Corn X Normal Male Corn)
2. number of living offspring (16)
3. number of preemies (0 – N/A)
4. number of slugs (7 of 23 eggs blamed on missing repeated breeding)
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month (0)
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (Normal)

SPECIAL
1. parent types (African Brown House Snakes)
2. number of living offspring (0 - see 7 below)
3. number of preemies (0)
4. number of slugs (5 of 23 out of two clutches
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month (3)
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (Normal)
7. All surviving offspring were euthanized at slightly over 3 months when some of each clutch developed spinal kinks for no apparent reason.
8. Both parents were withdrawn from future breeding and given to good pet homes with the stipulation that they could not be bred and must be killed or returned should the owners no longer want them.

I have replaced my African breeders with a Brown Female and a Red Male and will let you know how these turn out when I breed them.

	Corn Snake The Corn Snake or Red Rat Snake (Elaphe guttata) is a species of Rat Snake.

[John_E_Dove]

Originally Posted by morti

The only problem is: We have no way to tell if problems are the result of some genetic defect or if somebody did something wrong. If a litter of, say, hypos was tragic, who is to say that there was not some husbandry error or some situation out of the breeder's control?

Personally I always blame me if something goes wrong unless I cannot narrow down what I might have done wrong. Then I give it another shot and if the problem repeats the babies are food for hard to start Kings or Milks.

	Hypomelanistic Hypomelanistic - a genetic reduction in the dark pigment Melanin.

[deadliestformula]

Originally Posted by morti

The only problem is: We have no way to tell if problems are the result of some genetic defect or if somebody did something wrong. If a litter of, say, hypos was tragic, who is to say that there was not some husbandry error or some situation out of the breeder's control?

I had thought of this, My hopes are for a large response from a variety of individuals. I am hoping and preying that we get it. And I would like to assume that there are enough responses from different people that it will invalidate the possibility that ALL of them did something wrong. And I would hope that an equal number of morph breeders AND normal type breeders would have made husbandry errors. It only makes sense that it would happen that way. And honestly I could forsee that morphs are generally more expensive than normal types therefore more first time breeders who would be more apt to make errors in the process would be breeding 'normal types'. How often do we hear of some kid having 2 normal boas and wanting to breed them asking questions of how and when is right? So I definetly can see margins for error on both sides due to husbandry error.


Although I will add that if anyone who is posting breeding stats knows of a possible explanation for their failed attempt (ie. too young animals being bred, improper temps, illness during pregnancy, etc.) Please include that as well

	Hypomelanistic Hypomelanistic - a genetic reduction in the dark pigment Melanin.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[CraigC]

An inherent flaw with all breeders is that you must consider the likelyhood that animals will survive with captive care that would probably never make it as wild offspring. I think that some of the "genetic defects" found in F2 and F3 generations might simply be a reflection of this fact. Natural weeding out or culling is eliminated to a certain extent in captive breedings.

Craig

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[deadliestformula]

Arrrgh!!! This is turning out to be a little more than I thought it would.

I completely agree with you CraigC. There is care given to captive specimens that would allow them to outlive similar animals born into the wild. The culling of 'weaker' animals IS eliminated. I just don't know of a way to come up with the statistics any other way. Of course there will be some margin of error. BUT hopefully it will be equaled on both sides (morph and nonmorph). I know that isn't exactly what you were getting at, but I haven't yet figured out how to overcome the point you made. Honestly, figuring out the 'genetic defects' found in further generations that would have been culled out is probably WAAAAYYYY beyond my scope of ability. That would be a job for scientists and people who study genetics for a living.

[deadliestformula]

I have posted a message in several other places on the web requesting the same information and asking people to either email it to me, join here and post it, or reply to the thread that I asked on. I will post their replies as well as the location I got them from here. Just in the interest of gathering as many samples as possible.



HerpboyNY posted this on TRR:
Well these are my only accurate records I can contribute.

Gongylophis colubrinus, loveridgei
1. parent types (what morph or normal or het or whatever): Normals, male has unusually bright orange but is most likely locality based.
2. number of living offspring: 11
3. number of preemies: 0
4. number of slugs: 0
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month: 0
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (albino, poss het, normal, etc): They all looked like the mother with but much ceaner colors.

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[morti]

1. Dam: EBV Red Group. Sire: Hypo.
2. 13
3. 1
4. 0
5. Not Yet known.
6. 7 Hypo, 6 normal

	Hypomelanistic Hypomelanistic - a genetic reduction in the dark pigment Melanin.

	East Bay Vivarium East Bay Vivarium - Specializes in the captive production of a wide selection of reptiles, amphibians, and arachnids. Located in Berkeley California

[MegF]

Normal het amel female bred to an amel with no known hets.
First time breeding for both animals:
21 fertile eggs
0 slugs
21 live births
1 died-never ate
all the others survived and went on to live presumably happy snake lives

This year:
2 female locality Okeetees bred to 1 male locality Okeetee
First time breeding for all
Haven't had eggs yet but will post when laid and the outcome.

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

[JimiSnakes]

Mother--66% Het Albino (did not prove out)
Male-- Coral Albino 66% het anery

14 hets
1 preemy (didn't make it)
3 slugs
n/a
All het albinos

108 day gestation period.

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

	Anerythristic A recessive genetic mutation in which the animal is void of red pigment.

[Xeikeness]

1. Corn Snakes. Dam: Albino Amel Sire: Hypo
2. 9 Eggs laid
3. n/a
4. 2 bad Eggs(slimed/molded)
5. Haven't hatched yet(will edit post when they do)
6. Don't know quite yet, will edit when I do

	Corn Snake The Corn Snake or Red Rat Snake (Elaphe guttata) is a species of Rat Snake.

	Hypomelanistic Hypomelanistic - a genetic reduction in the dark pigment Melanin.

[JimiSnakes]

Originally Posted by deadliestformula

Hey guys, after the discussion on morphs effecting Herpetoculture, and the multiple mentions of statistics. Let's do our own study. If you breed, or have bred and have PRECISE records of what was bred and the results, please post em here so we can measure up how morphs fair against normals.
1. parent types (what morph or normal or het or whatever)
2. number of living offspring
3. number of preemies
4. number of slugs
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (albino, poss het, normal, etc)
If you can think of any other relevant data, let me know. Once we get a sampling of results, I personally will figure out all the percentages and post them here! Then the debate will be settled

1- Mother- pastel, Father- poss super salmon
2- 21
3- 0
4- 0
5- na
6- 1/4 hypo-pastels, hypo, pastels, normals

Nothing to add..gestations of 110 days!

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

	Hypomelanistic Hypomelanistic - a genetic reduction in the dark pigment Melanin.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[Aaron_NSBM]

Originally Posted by deadliestformula

1. parent types (what morph or normal or het or whatever)
2. number of living offspring
3. number of preemies
4. number of slugs
5. number of living offspring that died within 1 month
6. of the offspring in # 2-5, What were they? (albino, poss het, normal, etc)

1. Colombian Boas
2. 11
3. No preemies but did have 1 Still Born
4. 0
5. Just born will edit when a month comes around
6. Normals

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.

	Morph A morph is a color or pattern variation that is proven to be genetic. Common morphs include albino, anerythristic, gentically striped, Hypomelanistic, and many others. Morphs also include combinations of simple traits such as "Sunglow" which is Albino and Hypomelanistic. These traits may be recessive traits, co-dominant traits, dominant traits, or created through selective breeding (ie Pastel).

[TheBoaGuy]

1. Male BCI Kahl Albino
Female BCI salmon(Hypo)
2. 11
3. 0
4. 2
5. na
6. 4 het. sunglow 7 het. albino

	Boa Constrictor Imperator Boa Constrictor (Boa constrictor imperator). Most common is the Colombian Boa.

	Heterozygous Heterozygous - the animal carries the gene for a genetic trait but does not outwardly demonstrate the trait. Example: A boa that is het for albino looks normal but carries the albino gene. When it is bred to another het for albino boa or an albino boa, a percentage of the offspring will be albino.