Regurgitation Syndrome

Rust316 · #1 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 02:42 AM

I have an observation that I want to share on this topic, and perhaps start a discussion with respect to regurgitation syndrome in BCCs.

Following a regurgitation, we often hear that we should wait two weeks, and feed a smaller size food item. After that, we can increase the size and feeding frequency to a more normal schedule gradually over the next few weeks.

I'm not sure I completely agree with this type of advice. What I've noticed is that a second regurgitation is quite possible 4 or 5 meals later even under a conservative schedule. I think this happens because we rush too quickly to get our animals on a normal schedule again and do not appreciate the stress and toll that regurgitation inflicts on a boa's digestive system. My experience has been that if you resume a normal feeding schedule too soon, a second regurgitation will follow at some point down the road. It seems like it can take as many as six months to a year for a boa to recover from a regurgitation. A second regurgitation slows the recovery process down even further. A third often means death.

Now, assuming that the conditions that triggered the regurgitation have been corrected, the cage has been cleaned, the boa has rehydrated and has been left undisturbed (no handling), and the temps and environment are perfect, I think that a second regurgitation can still occur based on post-regurgitation feeding errors.

Fortunately, these days, I rarely experience this problem. But, it does happen every now and then for a variety of reasons (I listed them in Rex's regurge thread recently). I have also had to deal with a second regurgitation with two animals over the past two years. I waited two to three weeks to feed again in both instances and fed a pink rat or mouse, then followed that again two weeks later gradually stepping the animal back up to a normal size item every two weeks until it was back on track. The second regurgitation happened each time after I stepped up to the prey size the animal was eating prior to the first regurgitation.

In both instances, I believe that the second regurgitation was a direct result of feeding too much too soon, even though I was feeding on a two week schedule and the animal had spent weeks eating under-sized food items.

It is hard to starve a snake to death. We probably feed them way more than they need to maintain a healthy growth rate. Based on this reality, I have taken an even more conservative approach to dealing with regurgitation as it pertains to resuming normal feeding activities. I now wait 3 weeks to a month to feed again depending on the situation and age of the animal. I feed a hairless food item, and then wait another 2 to 3 weeks to do the same. After that, the animal is gradually boosted back up to its pre-regurgitation food size over a six month period with no food being offered any sooner than two weeks from the date of the last meal. I have not had a second regurgitation under this approach. My feeling is that it takes time for a young BCC to recover from a regurgitation, they will not starve to death, and if the triggering cause of the first regurgitation has been cured, and you give them plenty of time (i.e. months) to recover, they'll bounce back.

mpgt · #2 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 02:55 AM

Sounds good to me Rust. Thanks!!

richardduckworth · #3 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 02:58 AM

a lot of people fear having a runt and we know that first year of growth is the most explosive, and i think that gives people a sense of urgency.

Xeikeness · #4 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 03:03 AM

I think, and this is my own uneducated opinion, that lots of times regurge is somehting that happens because of something WE did wrong. Namely, feeding too often. So many people feed their adult boas ona weekly/bi-weekly/monthly schedule... More of what we need to be doing, imo, is trying to mimick their life in the wild best.

How many wild snakes regurgitate, then go, 'oh man I better sit this out a few weeks, and start fresh with a pink!' (Which is a good idea, I'm not razzing that, because it's the method that works best) Or every second Tuesday crawling out of the hide to kill and eat an Adult Male Rat(no white spots, please, and not too small, and be sure it's not too big.)

I think on the whole, almost everyone is overfeeding their adult snakes. In the wild, snakes eat when, where, and what they can, often going over a month before eating again.

I use sporradic feedings. I do feed every weekend. But... not often the same prey, and not often the same snakes. Some snakes I wait 3 weeks before feeding, then 2 weeks, then 4 while altering the size or type of prey.

It keeps things interesting, and except for Mozart(who was regurging long before I got her) I have never had a snake regurge on me. Whether this is luck, good solid genes, or what I'm doing I don't know. But I do know that for me, it's working. I have healthy happy snakes.

Smits · #5 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeikeness

I think, and this is my own uneducated opinion, that lots of times regurge is somehting that happens because of something WE did wrong. Namely, feeding too often.

Yeah I think the same thing. A healthy boa isn't going to throw up it's meal for no apparent reason (setting aside the possibility of poor rodent feeders).
I would think that it would be very difficult to under feed a healthy boa. Another issue in regards to feeding too often, is that a lot of novice keepers (from what I've seen) want the "biggest" boa. Perhaps for bragging rights, or maybe insecurity issues

.
That's just me 2 cents.
Thanks Rust!

Stargazer · #6 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 03:22 AM

I am bookmarking this information, but hopefully, I will never have to find out. So far, no regurges in my 2 y.o. Guyanan. A little anorexia maybe, but no bulemia.

Ranger · #7 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 03:27 AM

This was a great point: "It is hard to starve a snake to death."

We mammals panic after several hours without access to food, so we project our instinctual food-orientation on these coldblooded creatures. A snake can do month without food standing on its head. We're the ones with the problem when they miss a meal. Silly mammals.

richardduckworth · #8 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 03:33 AM

but with captive born snakes, a lot of gut flora is totally unbalanced. especially in sterile settings. you simply can't mimic "the wild" without the whole thing being wild, but in captivity, stress will take a normally balanced gut and make it dangerous to the animal's health.

they're all wild but captives IMO, because they simply haven't lost those instincts yet and won't for many, many generations.

i've always treated each snake as an individual and with BCCs, you have to assume that they're less stable when it comes to eating. you can do it ALL perfectly right, but they'll still regurge, whereas some species will simply take everything you give them.

a lot of western rattlesnakes are much more high strung than your average alabama timber rattler is. they even flick their tongue differently. they've evolved to be as threatening as they can possibly be. that wasn't as high on the priority list for the timbers (canebrakes) due to the environment, native wildlife, etc. .....these snakes are more likely to regurge than an old canebrake is. in the wild, they're less likely to lay there and not make a sound, totally relying on their camouflage either.

BCCs are simply different than BCIs too. what works for one may not work for the other.

if you feed your snakes the bare minimum, they'll be less of a "display" animal and will probably live longer.

these animals are simply not companion-material and are MAINLY meant to be looked at and to be impressive. i've never faulted people for wanting a large snake, just like i don't fault those who feed once a month or 10x a year. fair or not, these snakes are here to improve their owner's quality of lives. it's like beef cattle, they'd maybe not exist if not for the demand to do a certain thing, fair or natural or nice or not.

the thing that interests me the most right now is color and locale, so i feed mine every couple of weeks. i don't like fat snakes (totally round) but i don't want one that is on the thin side either.

technically, you'd have to feed less than "what is natural" since they don't have to go looking for food. it's just impossible to totally mimic nature. that's the beauty of it to me and that's why i take pictures of nature and aim for simplicity at home.

Rust316 · #9 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 03:38 AM

Good discussion so far. Keep the posts coming.

My point wasn't so much on what causes the "first" regurgitation. I agree user error is to blame in most instances. We've had lots of threads on that.

What I am focusing on is the length of time it takes to recover from a regurgitation, and do we push our animals too quickly after something like this only to cause more problems. Is the textbook advice bad? Should we build them back even slower than what the boa experts suggest?

Smits · #10 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rust316

Good discussion so far. Keep the posts coming.
My point wasn't so much on what causes the "first" regurgitation. I agree user error is to blame in most instances. We've had lots of threads on that.
What I am focusing on is the length of time it takes to recover from a regurgitation, and do we push our animals too quickly after something like this only to cause more problems. Is the textbook advice bad? Should we build them back even slower than what the boa experts suggest?

Might not be a bad idea......less is more

Tom · #11 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rust316

We probably feed them way more than they need to maintain a healthy growth rate.

Hi Rust316,

Very good post. You are right boas can go with out eating for a long time if they want to. I had a 8 lbs male BCI go off feeding for a 158 days. All he wanted to do was breed. He lost 2 lbs and he still had good muscle tone when he started to eat again.

Take care
Tom

Xeikeness · #12 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 05:04 AM

I definitely think that the textbook version of how to build up a snake after regurge is, while not "bad", is certainly not acceptable in ALL, or even MOST instances.

Mozart, for example. I was told often to wait 1-2 weeks after regurge to feed again, and feed something small and inoffensive. Well, every single time she would regurge again. One time I waited 5 weeks, and that was the only meal she kept down, but she died shortly thereafter. I fully blame my own ignorance, and the ignorance of those "experts" in my life to provide adequate(and accurate) information as the cause of her death.

I think that the "textbook" answer ought to be changed, and have many an asterix mark and many sub categories for type of snake, locality, size, weight, age, etc. There are SO MANY possibilities and variables in this sort of thing... one single cut and dry answer doesn't work in this instance.

trendkill · #13 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 05:21 AM

I don't have much to add.. but this is very good stuff, and a mod should definitely make this a sticky thread.

Rust316 · #14 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeikeness

Mozart, for example. I was told often to wait 1-2 weeks after regurge to feed again, and feed something small and inoffensive. Well, every single time she would regurge again. One time I waited 5 weeks, and that was the only meal she kept down, but she died shortly thereafter. I fully blame my own ignorance, and the ignorance of those "experts" in my life to provide adequate(and accurate) information as the cause of her death.

I lost my first three BCC. All three died after their 3rd regurgitation. A careful review of my husbandry practices at the time revealed a number of contributing factors to the successive regurgitations in addition to the "too much food too soon" reason.

Just food for thought on your situation. You make a good point though.

slither9192 · #15 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 05:29 AM

Very interesting thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by richardduckworth

...BCCs are simply different than BCIs too. what works for one may not work for the other...

I don't know if I should start another thread for this. But I would really love to hear what the differences between BCC and BCI are. I was under the impression that besides the sizes they were fairly similar to BCI? If this is hijacking the thread I will start a new thread for this topic.

Stargazer · #16 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 05:33 AM

There have been several threads started in the last several months on the differences in BCI's and BCC's, though at the moment, I'm too sleepy to look them up for you. For the purposes of this thread, I think BCC's are more prone to regurges than BCI's and in my experience, can be pickier eaters. They just seem to be more sensitive snakes and can have greater stress reactions. Just my observation from the ones I have, but this varies from snake to snake.

danktat · #17 (**permalink**) 07-17-2007, 08:26 AM

Well I am currently going thru this situation with Tiny (who I feel I stepped up feed size too quickly after her litter was born). For those who don't know the background she is an imported, long term captive, Suriname BCC who just had a litter in May, regurged a couple of weeks ago and I am in the process of getting back on track.

I just purchased some "beneficial bacteria" that I will be using a light dusting of when I decide she looks ready to try her first meal. We will see how that goes. I have not tried it in previous cases but considering she is a bit light on weight to begin with after dropping her litter I want to give her the best opertunity to recover as completely and quickly as possible. Great thread by the way.

mpgt · #18 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 03:43 AM

Bump.

VexalUntil · #19 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slither9192

Very interesting thread.
I don't know if I should start another thread for this. But I would really love to hear what the differences between BCC and BCI are. I was under the impression that besides the sizes they were fairly similar to BCI? If this is hijacking the thread I will start a new thread for this topic.

While the external morphological differences won't apply to this thread, the internal differences would be really interesting to try and determine. Why is it that BCCs seem to have "chronic regurg syndrome"? If Colombian BCIs are separated from Brazilian, Suri and Guyana BCCs by a relatively short distance (and in theory genetic difference) why is it that the two subspecies have different reactions to feedings? Anyone know of any papers analyzing the gasto-intestinal differences in BCC vs BCI??

I have very very limited experience feeding 100% known juvenile BCCs (a handful of baby Suris a work), but I have pretty good experience with "North Brazilian Redtails." (It's in quotes because the jury is still out whether or not they actually are pure N. Brazilians. For all intents and purposes let's assume they're pure.) I have noticed that from the litters of 5 females since 2005, roughly half to three quarters will regurg weaned mice when not supplied with heat. When supplied with heat (belly heat in a rack system reaching 90F), still a small portion (10%) will regurg when fed weaned mice. Now we typically just record that they regurg then feed again the next week or in two weeks depending on availability of mice. Usually we try and feed smaller prey to those that regurg, but sometimes they get fed the same size as previously offered. But either way 9 times out of 10 they all eat that next meal! Sometimes they regurg again, sometimes not. I wish I was more precise, but I'm trying to remember and generalize over 3 years of feedings. Yes a few die, but the vast majority survive even after regurging more than a few times.

Now the data from this year is a bit screwy because we made some BCI x N. Braz hybrids. We had two litters of BCCxBCI and three litters of BCC (with the crosses still out numbering the pures) for a total of approximately 70 snakes. This year they have been on heat since being setup on the rack, which happens right after their first shed. I've been the one feeding them all for the most part. Even the hybrids will regurg, but all seem to be famished and ready to eat anything the next week after regurging. Usually they'll eat great the first three or so meals (fat fuzzy mice to mice with their eyes barely open) and then start regurging when we start using weaned mice. Then they'll go a while without regurging, then have one or two regurgs, then eat without regurging, etc. They eat every time they are offered food, whether one or two weeks between offerings. Very very rarely do we have any that refuse a meal after they've started eating. Granted we had roughly 7 that refused for the first month after shedding, but they eventually started eating. And some of these that initially refused meals have gone on to be regurgers and others have never regurged. Of all the litters both crosses and pure, I think we had 2-3 that died and three that are pretty thin and weak, but still want to eat. Now I need to mention that not everyone regurges, there are still snakes that have never regurged a meal and are litter mates to those that have regurged. Additionally both the crosses and the pures have regurged.

I see what you're saying about increasing the time between feedings to decrease the stress to the system. I fully agree and in a perfect world I would have waited longer on the snakes I just mentioned. I just wanted to share my experience and show an example of crosses having the "regurgitation syndrome." Now the question I pose is why do some boas in a litter regurg when their littermates don't when they are all fed basically the same size meal? Or also, since BCIs don't have the "regurgitation syndrome" shouldn't crossing a BCC and BCI result in a decrease or extinction of the behavior?

Stigma · #20 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 06:58 AM

from my VERY limited experience with my BCI i will have to say i think rust might be on to something here....my snake regurged the first meal that i fed it ...more than likely due to me moving it after a feed...i waited 14 days then i fed it 3 times...once a week...1 small prey item...everything went fine ...i made SURE to cover its cage for a few days after every meal and not bother it in any way...but then all the sudden for NO reason he regurged again...and i could not figure it out...maybe moving to once a week after just a 14 day break WAS too soon...i dont know...but in my short experience with boa's i would say waiting a month or perhaps even 2 would not kill the snake..i am back on my snakes regular feedign schedule and he has eaten fine for the last 3 weeks...but after reading this i am actualy scared i might have started feeding him regularly too soon...i am gonna wait 1 extra week this time around just for the heck of it...

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