Luecistic Boa - Page 2

morti · #21 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 03:49 PM

DBall, I think you missed my point...

yungair23 made a hypothetical statment. I correctly realized that when someone says "If I had a million dollars" that generally means that they probably won't any time soon. This person also started out with "Why do they make them so pricey?" before typing out their hypothetical plan. I was attempting to answer that question while pointing out why such a plan would be WORSE in my opinion than snakes being expensive... It's because People gotta Eat.

I am really unsure where your point about inbreeding came from. I re-read both of my posts and I don't believe that I mentioned it. Since this thread is about a newly discovered morph from the wild, whoever pays thousands and/or hundreds of thousands for it will be doing so for a wildcaught snake... not an inbred one. Unless the snakes inbred themselves in the wild. Bad, evil inbreeding snakes!

I used Gus as an example because I really wasn't in the mood to see posts like "The evil inbreeding morph breeders don't deserve to eat". I did not say that I thought that Gus was over-priced any more than I said that anyone else is over-priced. However, what may be affordable to you may be outrageous to someone else. At every reptile show I have ever been too I get the "$100 for a boa?!? That's outrageous! That other guy over there has them for $50." I also get a lot of "Whut's da cheapest thang you got?" My response to both of these customers is "Well, my boas are quality, captive bred animals that come with records. If that is not what you are shopping for, then you are probably at the wrong table."

My Point, in case you missed it, is snakes all only have a relative value. The people who breed snakes for a living rely on this relative value staying as high as possible so they can make said living. The demand for snakes (of any kind) is relatively low (compared to, say, chocolate) so one person being irresponsible with pricing a large number of snakes can do a lot of damage.

Idle speculation is all this has ever been about. I idly speculate that noone reading this has the means or desire to truly crash the market of any snake. I simply cannot stand to see one viewpoint stand all by itself without any other viewpoint being given. That leads to sloppy thinking.

-Your Sick Uncle Morti

dball · #22 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 04:49 PM

Morti, I do hear and understand your point. And people do have to eat, you are right.

Basically people have to make a living. Gus does not charge anywhere near the amount other breeders of morphs charge for instance. He doesn't seem to be starving, in his photos you can see a house, cars, expensive enclosures for his animals, he seems to have the best camera around, and he must have a computer because he is on the internet quite often. So he obviously ain't hurting ( sorry Gus for using you as an exmple here, but your the easiest person to point out here). So if all these breeders are selling in general is snakes why the heck are they charging up to 50x more, for something inbred nonetheless. Again I think its ridiculous and the price tag is outrageous. They can eat and live happily on much less, heck they would probably even sell much more.

I have nothing against anyone making a profit in any (legal of course) business. Thats fine. How much you make and how unethical you have to be to get it is what bothers me.

I brought in the point of inbreeding and powerfeeding as part of the argument on why I personally think they as in most morphs are too expensive. Thats all. Just adding part of my opinions and belief to the argument, sorry for the confusion.

morti · #23 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 05:21 PM

Opposing viewpoints are very good, but even bringing inbreeding into this debate is comparing Apples to Machine Guns.

Lets take the example snake of this thread: A Leucistic boa. Unless somebody's holding out, so far as I know the snake in the picture is the only one of it's kind in the world. Let's say a private breeder buys that snake. He has to pay (just to make up a nice round number) $100,000 to get it because it's the only one in the world.

Let's say that this person breeds this new morph out over several generations and never breeds anything more closely related than first cousins to each other (for the sake of keeping inbreeding out of it for you). Instead of there only being one in the world, now there are... lets say... 5 offspring. How much are those snakes worth? If the breeder ONLY wants to make his inital investment back, they'd be worth $20,000 each now. Is $20,000 still too much money for this snake? Supply and demand. As supply goes up, prices go down.

Keep in mind: Things that are thousands of dollars today will not be thousands of dollars tomorrow. It wasn't all that long ago that it would cost you $20,000 to buy a sunglow. Now everybody's making them and it will cost you more like $2,000 - 3,000.

And you don't need to defend Gus Rentfro to me. I have nothing but respect for him. The reason I chose to use him as an example is, it seems that Everyone has Nothing but respect for Gus Rentfro. Using Gus as an example here is like walking into Church and using Jesus as an example. Everybody (usually) assumes that everybody also likes said person. You don't expect:

Me: I don't think Jesus would like that very much
Somebody else: I happen to know Jesus is a very nice guy.

Huh?

dball · #24 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 05:44 PM

LOL, I might sound like I am defending him but I like you am using him as an example. Not so much because everyone likes him but because most of the members here know of him for the most part and because he seems to be very ethical, which I like.

The thing is we have to be realistic. Greed is going to drive the majority of people willing to spend 100,000 on a snake to get them to breeding size as fast as possible and sell as many of them as possible to get the most out of their investment. Thats the difference.

If things were as you stated hypothetically done correctly it could be more justified, but unfortunatley the opposite of that happens much too often, and will more than likely happen in the case of this boa unfortunately.

Sorry if I am striking a nerve with you for whatever reason. I mean no disrespect to you, (unless you are a breeder with the morals I am speaking in disgust of).

Like I said I hear where you are coming from, just have a different viewpoint on the matter, and feel the scenario you implied would happen in a much more perfect world.

morti · #25 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 06:07 PM

My nerves were struck first by the other poster because there is a huge difference between being motivated only by money to the exclusion of morals and recognizing the law of supply and demand.

To me personally, both of those viewpoints are radical and extreme. One is Capitalism and one is Socialism. Capitalists want to make as much money as possible. Socialists want everything to be equal so everybody is happy. I propose that there is a more acceptable middle ground here.

Your posts only struck my nerves because I viewed them as non sequitur. I felt I was making a point about economics and it was reputed by a point about ethics. This confused me more than anything... thus Apples to Machine Guns. lol

I think we really can all just get along here though.

dball · #26 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

I think we really can all just get along here though.

Of course.

As for the economic standpoint I agree. A middle ground does need to be found. But as long as greed is the driving force for most these breeders and all they see is $$$$$$$$ than the actual quality of the animals produced will be sacrificed. That's a sidepoint I felt would be relevant in mentioning. And that is part of the reason these animals are really worth much less or that some of these breeders should be making much less.

I did briefly read through the past posts and realize that we really weren't on the same page. Sorry. It seemed as though Yungair was making a kind hypothetical statement with absolutely no intention of fulfilling it and I took it as you jumping down his throat on the side of the big breeder in this situation. As you can tell I don't have the utmost respect for alot of the big (unethical) breeders, thus leading to our little debate.

Sorry for the confusion.

morti · #27 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 08:26 PM

So if I read that correctly, you are stating that IF you leave inbreeding out of it, you will concede that under some circumstances, higher prices of snakes can be easily justified. That was the only initial point I was attempting to make.

Now that that's out of the way, and not to try and detract from the inital thrust of the thread, your side point is "But as long as greed is the driving force for most these breeders and all they see is $$$$$$$$ than the actual quality of the animals produced will be sacrificed." This statment makes a broad assumption: The assumption you are making is that quality is a factor of a breeders desire to make money. This is several logical fallacys rolled into one. Specificly it is a Hasty Generalization because you are implying that because some breeders are motivated by money, then most breeders are motivated by money. It is Affirming the consequent because you are stating:
a) some breeders are motivated by money
b) this causes their snakes to be expensive
Ergo) Expensive snakes must come from breeders who are motivated by money.
It is also a Straw Man because it takes the word "Big Breeders" and assigns it with connotations that are overwhelmingly viewed as "wrong". In this case you are setting up a Big Breeder straw man that is synonomous with Inbreeding and Motivated by money.

It was never my intent to create a situation where you would feel the need to berate my idea of a big breeder. Your statment "I did briefly read through the past posts and realize that we really weren't on the same page" leads me to believe that all you got out of my first post on your initial reading was the word "Big Breeder" and that set you into a tizzy about inbreeding. Then you read the word Gus and must have assumed that because I was not using the word Big Breeder in a negative fashion, then I must be using Gus in a negative fashion.

This was never my intent... Heck, having an arguement about morphs in general or proper practices of breeding them was never my intent. My intent was to refute a seperate logical falacy: Snakes are expensive because people are greedy.

-Your Sick Uncle Morti.

dball · #28 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:00 PM

1) yes I believe there are scenarios in which a snake should be priced higher than others
2) I do not think it should be solely based on the look of the snake which it so often is. SOME breeders knowing this take advantage of that and kick ethics to the curb knowing they can get away with it since so many buyers refuse to look into what it is that gave that snake a funky pattern and color.
3) No I do not think all breeders are bad, inbreed, and/or powerfeed
4) Do I think alot of morph breeders do? Its my belief many do
5) I understand what the point was of your first post but Big Breeders making money was my focal point. Basically you focused on why they have a right to make money and I voiced my opinions why I don't think many should.
6)Its not breeders motivated partially by money its the ones looking for that quick money (as much as fast as possible mentality that I am talking about)
7) Never did I say someone trying to make money, sells expensive snakes and if they are expensive they must be inbred. But lets face it morphs are the ones costing the outrageous prices. And morphs are generally the ones suffering from inbreeding and in some cases powerfeeding. Not saying definitively every morph or every morph breeder, lets clear that up now.
8 ) I never accused you of negatively referring to Gus. Don't know where that came from. Your point was in your opinion Gus would not be thrilled if people were selling the snakes he does much cheaper than him. Well, they do. He seems to be doing just fine because of the reputation he has built for himself.

SoberGuy · #29 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morti

My intent was to refute a seperate logical falacy: Snakes are expensive because people are greedy.

While I can understand believing that to be a falacy, I think there's also some truth in it.

These designer morphs of ball pythons, for example, are a matter of confusion for me. Are any of these really worth thousands of dollars? The counter to that, of course, is simply supply and demand. While supply is limited, they will command the highest price people are actually willing to pay. But again, are they really worth that much? To me, no, they aren't.

I do honestly believe that a lot of these morphs are produced and continued by inbreeding. I'm not sure that power feeding is as prevalent as some think, but I do believe it does exist, and would probably be more likely to be found in cases of high dollar morphs.

So should every snake be $50? No way. Expensive hots I can understand completely, as it probably helps to deter the idiots who have no proper experience or training. Of course there's idiots who can afford to buy an expensive hot, but at leasy they can afford their own medical care when it's all said and done. Some herps are known to be a little more frail, and I can understand these being more pricey. To me, it seems it would assure that the snake has gone to someone who can afford proper set up. All in all, I just don't see paying more than a few grand for a snake, and it better be real special for a few grand. I don't understand designer morphs being outrageously priced.

telefrag · #30 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:11 PM

when piebald ball pythons are 100 bucks each, im gonna buy one.

plain and simple

RevMojo · #31 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:16 PM

But getting back to the real point of the thread, while the lucy boa is interesting to look at, I wouldn't want it, at any price.

morti · #32 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:29 PM

1) Good.. We are in agreement.
2) I hear that a lot so it must be true.
3) Good. Me neither
4) Discussions of inbreeding are always one sided in this forum so to folow along, let's assume that inbreeding is always bad and power-feeding is always bad. I do not have personal knowledge of very many people inbreeding or powerfeeding. If you have some personal knowledge (that is different from Person X on this forum said) I would like to know it. In order to support your position that many breeders do this, you will have to provide a statistically significant amount of proof. My position is that it is not as common as you say. Proof of a lack of activity is impossible to provide.
5) "Basically you focused on why they have a right to make money and I voiced my opinions why I don't think many should." So are you, in fact stating that you don't think that the evil inbreeders deserve to eat? That's really funny because that's exactly what I was jokingly pointed out as the most extreme position that I have NO respect for.
6) Wanting as much money as possible as quickly as possible is quite common in every aspect of all our lives. This is not an evil position. Attempting to achieve this goal by evil means is an evil position. If you are against the means, then say you are against the means. It is independant from the money.
7) No, but your position assumes that logic. Otherwise your position is illogical.

In your first post you said: "And as for Gus, he sells his animals at a reasonable price as far as I can tell. Anyone can afford them really with a little bit of saving. And its worth every penny spending that kind of money knowing the breeder is ethical (not powerfeeding, not inbreeding) and has a great reputation of selling only healthy fine quality animals. I'd pay Gus' price over a 75$ animal of the same ssp. just on the reputation and quality alone." is contextotomy of my statement and a red herring to boot. I agree with every word of what you said, but it has NOTHING to do with the point being discussed.

muzixman · #33 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevMojo

But getting back to the real point of the thread, while the lucy boa is interesting to look at, I wouldn't want it, at any price.

I knew that was going to come into the picture, it was just a matter of time and who. lol but can you say honestly say if you had the only one known that you wouldn't want it or would you keep it so no one could use it for the genes?? I always say to each there own so your answer really wont effect my opinion.

CruiserMaiden · #34 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:33 PM

Ok... so I'm not reading through all of that debate right now. I'm sure everyone has a GREAT point about the economics of breeding snakes, etc. but I'm at work and don't have time for that.

On the topic of the Leucistic Boa - its very very pretty

. I'm not terribly into the morphs but it IS nice looking. I have a hard time believing it would be wild caught though?

Topic: Pretty exotic new boa!

morti · #35 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:34 PM

Soberguy: "I do believe it does exist, and would probably be more likely to be found in cases of high dollar morphs."

I believe it would be LESS likely in high-dollar morphs. Would YOU do anything detrimental to the health of a snake that you just payed high dollars for?

Telefrag: "when piebald ball pythons are 100 bucks each, im gonna buy one.
plain and simple"
LOL! Me too... and E. prasina for $100 each as well. Oooh! And Boelens! And those crazy rhino rats too!

RevMojo · #36 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muzixman

I knew that was going to come into the picture, it was just a matter of time and who. lol but can you say honestly say if you had the only one known that you wouldn't want it or would you keep it so no one could use it for the genes?? I always say to each there own so your answer really wont effect my opinion.

If one suddenly appeared in my house, considering I own no boas, much less a breeding pair, I'd consider it so auspicious I just might keep it. I guess I should have said I wouldn't buy one, at any price.

muzixman · #37 (**permalink**) 12-21-2006, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevMojo

If one suddenly appeared in my house, considering I own no boas, much less a breeding pair, I'd consider it so auspicious I just might keep it. I guess I should have said I wouldn't buy one, at any price.

That would make a good first for you but i hardly think it will end up on your porch.

dball · #38 (**permalink**) 12-22-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

4) Do I think alot of morph breeders do? Its my belief many do

Let me say this again, IT IS MY BELIEF. Its kind of hard to get breeders to admit to that to prove my point. But since I have no confessions, well it must not be happening right?

5) I never said the evil inbreeder doesn't deserve to eat. I don't think they deserve to prosper in this industry. There are other ways to make money than by selling snakes.

6) I am against the means, you are correct.

8 ) I am sorry, I thought you implied in your first post that Gus wouldn't be to thrilled if someone was selling the same snakes he was for much less. In that case my response that based upon what he offers people would still buy them, is every bit relevant to the point you were trying to make. Or is it only irrelevant when it negates your point?

Quote:

Would YOU do anything detrimental to the health of a snake that you just payed high dollars for?

I figured the offspring are the ones that are going to suffer assumming inbreeding, not the precious high dollar snake you initially purchased. Unless you are talking about powerfeeding, in that case yes your investment would suffer.

morti · #39 (**permalink**) 12-22-2006, 06:57 PM

dball, thank you for debating this issue with me. I feel that everything that needs to be said has been said. I hope there are no hard feelings on your end because I don't have any.

I can't stand to see something contraversial come up and only ever see one side of the issue.

Have a Merry Christmas (or A Happy Holiday Of Choice)!

dball · #40 (**permalink**) 12-23-2006, 03:02 AM

It is always good to hear the other side of any argument, I am in complete agreement. Of course there are not any hard feelings, everything was kept very civil and I thank you for that.

Hope you and your family have a safe and happy holiday as well. Take care.

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