Learned something

[lisagordier]

Well, I heard the stories and mine really wasn't that bad until yesterday.

As some of you may know Zephyr (my RTB-Salmon mix) was to give birth. Well she did. Unfortunately, her first litter was lost. Out of 23, most dud eggs, 7 actual babies died. -- I will say the vet is still concerned she may still have some still left so I am keeping a close eye on her but she is being and extremely grumpy and ravenous gal

Anyway,
The story is that the male snake was from a breeder gentleman which every thing was ok. Until yesterday. Things hit the fan. I found out just what sort of person he is. Ok, over the last few months I found out that he bought and sold snakes in regards to breeding like water just because he did or did not like the look of them. One of the reasons that Zephyr was with me was because he didn't really have a cage big enough to keep her. she's going on 7' long and used to being able to stretch out. Would you want to be cramped up for almost a year not being able to move around that much?

Now, as I mentioned, this was her first litter. I know a lot of things can happen even if things are "perfect". He even emailed me a letter stating that one of his friends lost a $5,000 snake and it's litter. But what's the first thing he does? Blames me and says that if Zephyr had been with him the whole year he would've had the whole litter alive!

And what if that's not the case!? I couldv'e very easily lost my ONLY snake. My pet (which I told him). And obviously now I know the truth.

Now I know there are breeders here. And I know you all probably don't all think the same way. But just to give you and idea of how this guy thinks; he balked at the idea of me actually taking Zephyr to a reputable reptile vet to check on her health during the pregnacy. Hmmm, to much money. He'll spend $8,000 for a snake but not a few hundred to make sure of the health of a snake.

Well, No more dealings with him. If Zephyr does indeed have any little ones left and they do live. I'll post a note. But at the moment it doesn't seem likely. I just had to get that out.

Right now I'm just waiting for the store to open so I can get some food for her. She's acting like Cookie monster at a plate of cookies. only the cookies are gone.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[JMReptiles]

Im really sorry to hear that you lost the whole litter but at least it seems as the mother is doing ok.

Cant believe some people....all in it for the money and could care less about the actual animals.

[RioBravoReptiles]

Female Boas of proper condition aren't any more likely to produce dud first litters than any others, in my opinion. Though it does happen more frequently if the female is not yet over three years of age. But anyway, don't get dissapointed or give up because of one bad experience. You can't draw any conclusions about your program or set-ups from one litter, good or bad. On the other hand if you continue to get a high percentage of problems instead of healthy babies you need to make changes.
.
I don't know anything about your business partner (and don't want to know) but it sounds like somekind of breeding loan or split the litter arrangement? Practically anybody who has been involved with those deals has come away with a bloody-nose (so-to-speak). Even otherwise nice people get into-it with partners when problems occur.. and they always do at some point. Consider that if things had gone differently with this litter and you had a pile of beautiful babies.. probably you would work through any ethical or philosophical differences with your partner instead of going after them. It's human nature.
.
It's considered a natural law that more friendships have been lost and more enemies made over breeding loans and similar deals than over girlfriends or money.
.
Anyway, when you do it all by yourself with animals you have raised and conditioned you can take all the pride in the results.
.
Just my philosophy for the day.

[VoodooChile]

Originally Posted by RioBravoReptiles

Female Boas of proper condition aren't any more likely to produce dud first litters than any others, in my opinion. Though it does happen more frequently if the female is not yet over three years of age. But anyway, don't get dissapointed or give up because of one bad experience. You can't draw any conclusions about your program or set-ups from one litter, good or bad. On the other hand if you continue to get a high percentage of problems instead of healthy babies you need to make changes.
.
I don't know anything about your business partner (and don't want to know) but it sounds like somekind of breeding loan or split the litter arrangement? Practically anybody who has been involved with those deals has come away with a bloody-nose (so-to-speak). Even otherwise nice people get into-it with partners when problems occur.. and they always do at some point. Consider that if things had gone differently with this litter and you had a pile of beautiful babies.. probably you would work through any ethical or philosophical differences with your partner instead of going after them. It's human nature.
.
It's considered a natural law that more friendships have been lost and more enemies made over breeding loans and similar deals than over girlfriends or money.
.
Anyway, when you do it all by yourself with animals you have raised and conditioned you can take all the pride in the results.
.
Just my philosophy for the day.

I very much agree..I was offered a male to breed my female BP to a long time ago, and I refused..I can just see that going downhill fast. The person was a friend, and because I refused, the friendship ended. If it ended because of that, I can only imagine the headaches that could have resulted from a shared breeding program.

[lisagordier]

well, quick update,
I spoke with a pretty good expert out here (in Phoenix). They work with a lot of reptiles (The Phoenix Herpetolgical Society)

Anyway, I found a very likely cause for Zephyr's "early" birthing. Which I thought it might be a stress factor but I wasn't sure specifically which one.

Anyway. Some of this story is that the breeder and I weren't sure that Zephyr had actually gotten pregnant. So sonogram came into play. The first one didn't show anything. But, the radiologist had never handled a snake before and was so impressed by Zephyr's calm demener that he offered to do a follow-up for free (free training for him & his staff). Well why not. So, couple months down the road follow-up came, Zephyr's behavior hadn't changed, but he did the sonogram and WOW babies!

Now, Sunday. early birth. Just got off the phone with my Herpetologist gal. Found out that they had the same thing happen with one of their snakes. They weren't sure what was going on with her, had a sonogram done. Stressed the snake out, snake dropped all the eggs next day! unfortunately one of the eggs burst inside and killed the female too.

So, now near as I figure. Zephyr got stressed out and dropped the eggs way too soon. She shouldv'e had at least another 30 days, maybe more.
----------------------------------------------------------

But here's the interesting thing that I already know on the breeder's end, in case you were wondering.

Zephyr was already getting stressed out at his place being in a cage that was at least one maybe two sizes to small for her. Knowing what I know now I can't imagine what might have happened had he kept (or tried to keep) her for the whole pregnancy. Especially knowing that he likes to check on his snakes. Also knowing that Zephyr hadn't been behaving like any of your "average" pregant snakes for the whole time.

Would the scenario really have ended up any different? I don't think anyone can answer that question. At least now I have an answer to a question. And even my herpetologist gal says just to keep a good eye on Zephyr. The next day or two should be the most telling.

	Geek Auto Linker or Gallon Geek Auto Linker Gallon - United States liquid unit equal to 4 quarts or 3.785 liters

[lisagordier]

Originally Posted by RioBravoReptiles

Female Boas of proper condition aren't any more likely to produce dud first litters than any others, in my opinion. Though it does happen more frequently if the female is not yet over three years of age. But anyway, don't get dissapointed or give up because of one bad experience. You can't draw any conclusions about your program or set-ups from one litter, good or bad. On the other hand if you continue to get a high percentage of problems instead of healthy babies you need to make changes.
.
I don't know anything about your business partner (and don't want to know) but it sounds like somekind of breeding loan or split the litter arrangement? Practically anybody who has been involved with those deals has come away with a bloody-nose (so-to-speak). Even otherwise nice people get into-it with partners when problems occur.. and they always do at some point. Consider that if things had gone differently with this litter and you had a pile of beautiful babies.. probably you would work through any ethical or philosophical differences with your partner instead of going after them. It's human nature.
.
It's considered a natural law that more friendships have been lost and more enemies made over breeding loans and similar deals than over girlfriends or money.
.
Anyway, when you do it all by yourself with animals you have raised and conditioned you can take all the pride in the results.
.
Just my philosophy for the day.

In truth I wouldn't have had so much of a problem with him if he had just been the same person at both ends. (so to speak) That day he said one thing to my face and then when I talked to him on the phone (or email) he said a completely different thing. Never much cared for hypocrits.

And yeah, it was a sort of agreement like that. He even was going to get the better half of it. The only thing that made it worse was the fact that he wasn't even willing to unload a bunch of large rats that he wasn't going to use. He wanted me to pay for them now because he wasn't going to get any babies. It might be just me, but after I'd spent my own money for vet bills, trauma with Zephyr (still) and him say "I'll pay once we sell a baby" (of course no babies now). [then he says "oh, I have a whole bunch of large rats and no snakes to feed them to" and he wants me to buy them off him]

----
ok, still venting. It's probably just me. I'm just the type of person that if it'd been the other way round; knowing the female would need rats, I'd just given the rats up. But that's just me.

well, I should probably stop yelling and go get my little girl some "food for the winter" as it were. I've already had to kill three rats for her today. I'll wait a few days to feed her anymore. but the pet stores seem to be having a run on their frozen rats. so if I don't buy them now I'll have to kill more live ones.

[Pete J]

Originally Posted by lisagordier

In truth I wouldn't have had so much of a problem with him if he had just been the same person at both ends. (so to speak) That day he said one thing to my face and then when I talked to him on the phone (or email) he said a completely different thing. Never much cared for hypocrits.
And yeah, it was a sort of agreement like that. He even was going to get the better half of it. The only thing that made it worse was the fact that he wasn't even willing to unload a bunch of large rats that he wasn't going to use. He wanted me to pay for them now because he wasn't going to get any babies. It might be just me, but after I'd spent my own money for vet bills, trauma with Zephyr (still) and him say "I'll pay once we sell a baby" (of course no babies now). [then he says "oh, I have a whole bunch of large rats and no snakes to feed them to" and he wants me to buy them off him]
----
ok, still venting. It's probably just me. I'm just the type of person that if it'd been the other way round; knowing the female would need rats, I'd just given the rats up. But that's just me.
well, I should probably stop yelling and go get my little girl some "food for the winter" as it were. I've already had to kill three rats for her today. I'll wait a few days to feed her anymore. but the pet stores seem to be having a run on their frozen rats. so if I don't buy them now I'll have to kill more live ones.

i dont know much about breeding but i know a little about business.

i would heed gus's message.

and in the future for such business deals do not rely on verbal or assumed contracts. write it down get it signed, notarized, whatever it takes to be legally binding. especially considering the long term nature of the breeding

that will help keep the goals, contributions, and rewards clear for each person and keep you from stressing

unless you consider small claims court stress haha

good luck in the future

[lisagordier]

thanks pedro,
we did have one part in writing that was for when he actually had Zephyr. I wasn't about to just hand her over without him signing anything. Especially since she was my only snake. I guess the only problem was that he really didn't have anything to keep her in for the whole pregnancy and he kept asking me about keeping her for the rest or all of the pregnancy cause he just didn't feel comfortable with keeping her. Again, lesson learned.