Starter arboreal

turel · #1 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 02:16 AM

hi everyone, i was just wondering what a good starter arboreal snake would be. i read in another thread that a jungle carpet python normally is but for some reason (i really dont know why) but i am bias against pythons.i am only bias against pythons for my own personal keep, just so people dont get the wrong idea. and i dont plan to get an arboreal species untill i am out of college but i might as well ask now, since it is on my mind. id be willing to get the carpet if everyone really thinks its the best but id rather have some kind of boa. thanks everyone in advanced. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
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LdyDrgn · #2 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 02:40 AM

Amazon Tree boas! Be warned: The are ADDICTING!! hehehehe
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CraigC · #3 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 02:46 AM

Hey Turel,
Sunrise huh, I'm in Pembroke Pines. Anyway, when I got into arboreals I was only interested in Emeralds so that's what I started with. That still holds true today. Why get something you aren't really interested in "to start with"? If you do your homework and find out all you can about a species, why not start with that.
CraigC
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turel · #4 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 03:03 AM

you prove a good point there. i was mostly thinking about amazons but i was just making sure with the fine people of this site.
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BWSmith · #5 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 03:11 AM

If you get an amazon, be SURE that it is a captive bred feeding one. Dont save money and get the imports.
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Stormyva · #6 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 03:41 AM

If you go the route of an Amazon... go to a pet shop and handle a couple, or let me re-phrase try to handle them and see how you like the "nippyness" that they are famous for.
Watch out though they are very addictive [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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LdyDrgn · #7 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 03:46 AM

"Arboreal" and "nippy" are normally synonymous. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img] If you liked pythons, I would have recommended an Irian Jaya.... and they aren't normally nippy at all. Amazons do tame down (sort of, depends on age and how oftne you handle) and are usually much more handleable than Emeralds. They have easier care requirements adn are not as prone to regurge. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
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CraigC · #8 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 12:24 PM

Why do folks keep insisting that ATB's have "less" requirements than ETB's? Do they not require temp and humidity levels in the same ranges as emeralds? Are these levels not acheived in the same way? I don't beleive emeralds are more prone to bite than amazons. I have a few emeralds and I'm not concerned about handling them because they "might stress out".
Regurge is simply not an issue in healthy, properly maintained emeralds! They are not prone to regurge unless something is either wrong with them, environmental conditions are not right or they are fed too often or too large a food item.
CraigC

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Emeralds are real Gems!

billycat215 · #9 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 01:17 PM

i agree with craig...if u do ur homework, read all that u can...ask any question that can possibly be be basked...it shouldnt be a problem......problems occur when people try turning keeping aboreals into rocket science....take care of the 3 major things(heat, humidity, feeding), and it was be very very simple and rewarding to u as a snake owner
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Stormyva · #10 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 01:58 PM

Just to get a friendly discussion going here [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>
Why do folks keep insisting that ATB's have "less" requirements than ETB's? Do they not require temp and humidity levels in the same ranges as emeralds? Are these levels not acheived in the same way?
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
I do not believe that anyone has said that ATBs "less" requirements than ETBs. I believe what has been said is that ATBs are more forgiving of errors than ETBs are. Similar to the whole Guyana BCC vs Colombian BCI thing. ATBs are also a LOT less expensive than ETBs in general.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>
Regurge is simply not an issue in healthy, properly maintained emeralds! They are not prone to regurge unless something is either wrong with them, environmental conditions are not right or they are fed too often or too large a food item.
</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>
A healthy, properly maintained emerald! That is the whole key and you and billycat215 are right in saying that. That is also one reason that most people will say that ETBs are not good starters. Someone new to keeping snakes with higher humidity demands and more specific caging requirements such as ETBs is going to make more errors than someone with experience. In my opinion an ETB is not going to fare as well through such a learning curve as an ATB will.

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J_Riley · #11 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 04:17 PM

I look at it this way. You can read and read and read about how to drive a manual transmission, but nothing in that reading prepares you for exactly when that clutch will grab and the car will start to roll. Unless you are a natural, you will have several jerky starts, probably stall it several more times and perhaps several other things.

I would rather learn on a vehicle with good low end torque that tolerates a little mistiming between giving it some gas and letting out the clutch, versus a Testarossa Ferrari which is decidedly less forgiving.

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JuliusSqueezer · #12 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 04:24 PM

About the stress issue. Both Emeralds and Amazons are nocturnal and while either may tame down or even seem to enjoy our company ...you can't go running around the neighborhood with them like you might a cornsnake or a ball python. Handling even the tamest of either still requires a delicate touch and a lot of understanding. You can't just reach in get them out several times a day like you can some animals or yes...they will stress completely out. Besides that, unwrapping an emerald from a perch is not the easiest thing to do sometimes. Keep in mind that when handling them during the day time, you are interupting their sleep time. Handling them at night....better make sure they aren't in hunting mode. hehe

But anyway...can they be handled? Yes of course they can...just not too often and not for too long. and by no means should they be sported around...for instance, you won't want to go hang out in front of walmart or in a public park with your emerald...you shouldn't really do it with any snake but burms, balls and boas and a few others often seem to be somewhat forgiving of such events. I guess what I am trying to say is....there are varying degrees as to what is stressful and what is not. Craig says it doesn't stress them to handle them....and it doesn't usually IF handled correctly and within the guide lines of what is proper for that particular species. Just don't go thinking that means you can get your emerald out every afternoon to sit and chill out watching baseball with or passing him around the room so all your friends can check him out....whereas this might be totally acceptable with a dog tame burmese python or something.
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LdyDrgn · #13 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 06:20 PM

Thank you Stormy and J, that was the point I was trying to make. Yes, ATBs are less forgiving of mistakes. I also notice that ATBs are a bit less prone to stress due to handling. We don't handle them like we do our other snakes, but they certainly get handled more often than the ETB.

Craig, I am not trying to start an argument. You started with an ETB and succeeded. I think that is great, but not everyone can do that. I know I could have not. I am still trying to convince myself I am ready for a BRB! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

My point is: it is better for MOST people to start with an ATB, a snake that is more forgiving of mistakes. I can't imagine telling anyone to buy a snake worth that much money and needs 'specific' care only to have them make one husbandry glitch because they are still learning. Snake gets sick, snake possibly dies, keeper is resentful and decides they were given bad information (and they are out a good amount of money) or feels they could never keep an ETB again. It's a waste either way you look at it. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_frown.gif[/img]

I had something else to say, but my brain went kaboom.... *sigh*
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CraigC · #14 (**permalink**) 04-09-2003, 11:59 PM

Ok. Maybe from my perspective, I see nothing wrong with starting out with an arboreal in which you have an interest. I have nothing against ATB's or GTP's, but I have no interest in them. I don't think that anyone should get an animal that they are not prepared to provide the proper habitat for, BEFORE they get it.

For discussion, let's look at the requirements (monetary) to provide proper environmental conditions. I have helixes for each of my adult animals, I built suitable enclosures for them and I purchased appropriate heating units. Let's say about $300.00 per animal. If that is what it takes to maintain proper environments for the animal, regardless of the cost of the animal, that's what it takes. I get frustrated everytime I see someone asking for help because they can't get the temps right or the humidity right AFTER THEY ALREADY HAVE THE SNAKE. Talk about stress! Should this not be addressed prior to getting the snake? Is it fair to the snake that someone is not willing to spend what it takes to provide proper care? If you have the set-up right, I don't believe you should not start with an arboreal that interests you.

I'm sorry but I just don't believe that ATB's are more forgiving of mistakes than ETB's and I don't believe that ETB's are more prone to bite than ATB's. Has anyone who keeps multiple animals of both ETB's and ATB's seen any indication one way or the other?

Jules, I was speaking of handling, strictly in arboreal terms! LOL [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]
CraigC
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Stormyva · #15 (**permalink**) 04-10-2003, 12:17 AM

Craig.... if everyone had the experience level that you have and have done the research that you have then we would not be seeing all of these Burms and Boas up for adoption. There are very few newbies to snakes that are going to jump in and dump the money for an elaborate set up with helix controls and the other amenities that you use. The fact of the matter is that most of the snakes including ETB, GTP, and ATBs are sold to people that have not done any research, are going to put them into a 10 gallon aquarium with a screen top, no heat source, and then come to us for the information after the snake becomes ill. The longer these people keep these snakes, if they survive, the more they realize that there is more to keeping a snake than just tossing it in a box. They learn that thermostats, rheostats, and all other stuff we have learned about through trial and error are really needed. My opinion is that the ATB is going to endure this learning period much better than an ETB or GTP and due to the cost of the animal itself will probably be the one chosen anyways.

Have fun with Brett and the handling [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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morti · #16 (**permalink**) 04-10-2003, 12:26 AM

I don't reccomend ETB's as a first arboreal for the same reasons that I don't reccomend Ball Pythons as a first snake. Most ETB's that are even remotely affordable are fresh off the boat imports. We all know that fresh imports make far worse captives than captive bred animals.

The cost of a captive bred ETB is a bit prohibitive, but I agree that if someone is willing to a) do all the research about the snake before aquiring one; b) be prepaired for the animal with a perfect habitat; and c) shell out the big bucks for a CBB ETB, I say go for it.

For most humans, ATBs make better captives, better pets, and they cost less.

-Your Sick Uncle Morti.
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CraigC · #17 (**permalink**) 04-10-2003, 02:45 AM

Don't take this the wrong way, but it seems you are saying: Better to lose a cheaper snake than a more expensive one. I don't think price should be the defining reason for starting with a particular species. If you are not prepared to provide the necessities then don't even think about getting the animal!

Morti, I agree that CBB animals are the way to go for newbie arborealists, but you still have to provide proper habitat. If you can't afford to do this, stay out of arboreals for the sake of the animals.

Yes, imports are a gamble at best and nobody should purchase them unless they are willing to do what ever it takes to get them established. However, you are always taking a gamble with them and must go into it realizing that loss is always a possibility, actually a probability. The folks who collect them, 99% of the time, don't provide proper care. Animals may and do spend weeks hung in a bag in a tree with no food, no water, and certainly no sanitary conditions. This is directly from the mouth of an importer with knowledge of the collecting conditions. Once a certain amount of damage is done to the internal organs, the animal is not going to survive NO MATTER WHAT IS DONE ONCE IT IS HERE!. We have kept fresh WC animals up to 18 months, only to watch them develop problems and eventually die. This is from organ damage, almost always kidney damage, that happened before we even got them.

CraigC

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Stormyva · #18 (**permalink**) 04-10-2003, 03:04 AM

Once again Craig I do agree that if you cant afford proper care then you should not but the animal but... as far as starter arboreals go IMO it has nothing to do with the cost it is all about the ATB being more resilient and more forgiving of errors and the learning curve involved with gaining that experience.

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"A man who carries a cat by the tail is getting experience that will always be helpful. He isn't likely to grow dim or doubtful. Chances are, he isn't likely to carry the cat that way again, either. But if he wants to, I say let him!"
Mark Twain

Ed_r · #19 (**permalink**) 04-10-2003, 03:12 AM

Not to sound rude ...but, if you have to ask what is a good starter arboreal, your probably not ready for one. Meaning if you really had a passion to keep arboreals, you would have studied up on them and know what you could and could not handle. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
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CraigC · #20 (**permalink**) 04-10-2003, 03:12 AM

Stormy,
Who is making the claim that ATB's are more forgiving? I see no evidence that this is the case. Only what people have been saying since I got into Emeralds in '98. Who has done the research to substantiate that claim?
CraigC

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Emeralds are real Gems!

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