NLxNorthern ETB.....

Johnny801 · #1 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 06:45 AM

This is my new ETB neo that will soon be arriving. This animal comes from Dave Torro. The sire is a New Locale ETB and the dam is a Northern ETB. He is a high quality CBB neonate. As soon as he feeds a couple more times, he will make his new home with me.

Enjoy!!! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

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NYCSpeedcore · #2 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 07:09 AM

Emerald's hands down have to be my favorite snakes... congrads on your new baby!
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JuliusSqueezer · #3 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 04:29 PM

Sweet little baby ya got there....I still dunno if I am buying into this New Locale thing though...I'm thinking breeders are getting desperate for something else to call Notherns. I haven't been able to dig up much info from anyone except breeders...no scientific explination or backing I mean. Anyone else know something about this? Where exactly is this new locale?
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ls1grrrl · #4 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 04:35 PM

what a little cutie, John! congrats on the new baby [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif[/img]

-Heather
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CraigC · #5 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 06:13 PM

Hey Julius,
I think that for lack of a better description, this morph is described as "New Locale".
This term is more relevent to the distinguishing characteristics then to a particular location. Most noted are the "Eye Spots" and basin like laterals. They actually occur in the wild and are not a hype.
CraigC
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Johnny801 · #6 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 06:40 PM

Jules-

There is no specific location designated to a 'New Locale' (NL) ETB. From what I have been able to gather, NL's have been collected from at least 2 separate regions. The term 'NL' is basically a generic term applied to an ETB that does not qualify as a Northern or an Amazon Basin. A NL specimen has qualities (i.e. markings/patterning) of both. NL specimens on average have a profuse amount of white on them. Their white markings are generally thicker and broader, often times connected to form a 'pitchfork' marking. Whereas Northerns on average have fewer amounts of white. With the white markings being thinner. Also, NL specimens possess lateral markings like Basins do. As well as flecks and drip marks. However, NL specimens possess a trait that neither Northerns nor Basins possess. This trait is known as 'Eyespots'. One white circular patch on top of each lobe at the rear of their head. Resembling eyes.

Here are examples of each:

Northern ETB (Pic belonging to and courtesy of Danny Mendez.)

Amazon Basin ETB (Pic and animal belonging to Craig/Karen Clark and courtesy of same.)

NL New Locale ETB (Pic and animal belonging to Danny Mendez and courtesy of same.)

Hope this helps to clear it up for you, Jules. The term 'New Locale' is not just breeders or dealers trying to pin a name on a normal snake.
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Johnny801 · #7 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 08:00 PM

Here is another example of a 'NL' animal:

(This one is also property and courtesy of Danny Mendez/Urban Jungles. )
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Swerve · #8 (**permalink**) 10-19-2002, 08:31 PM

Congrats on the new emmy..good luck with him/her
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Johnny801 · #9 (**permalink**) 10-20-2002, 11:17 PM

Just a bump for JuliusSqueezer.
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JuliusSqueezer · #10 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 05:17 AM

OK...I had a friend call me the other day and offer me a male for sale with "eye spots" on his head....must be one of these. Still though...it is a northern....I can't see where the coloring of an animal that varies in pattern so much could claim a different ssp because of a genetic striping trait. The head scales of the NL is that of Northern...I see no connection whatsoever to Basin. Am I wrong?

By the way....I am NOT downing the snake....it is truely remarkable and beautiful. I just wish breeders and importers wouldn't try and make up species names for new selective breeding projects.
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Johnny801 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 05:49 AM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I see no connection whatsoever to Basin. Am I wrong? </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, you are. Northern ETB's do not have lateral markings. Whereas both Basins and NL's do.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>I can't see where the coloring of an animal that varies in pattern so much could claim a different ssp because of a genetic striping trait. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

As I'm sure you are well aware of, they are all the same species. Corallus Caninus. A NL is neither a Northern nor an Amazon Basin ETB. Basically, it is the same as the different locales and coloring/patterning of Green Tree Pythons. All the same snake. Just a different variation. An NL is basically a combined mix of the traits of both Northerns and Basins.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I just wish breeders and importers wouldn't try and make up species names for new selective breeding projects. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

To my knowledge, that is not the case. NL ETB's occur naturally and are collected as such in the wild. They are not part of a selective breeding group. In fact, Basins still command a fairly higher price than NL's. The term 'New Locale' is just that. A term. It is not a given scientific name. It has just been a term used by those of us in the ETB/Corallus community to describe a snake that is not technically either a Basin or a Northern. NL's occur in more than one region. So they cannot have a specific locale given to them. Unlike the numerously varied locales designated to Chondro's. One look at an 'NL' ETB, and the differences are obvious between it and the other two. Kind of like Redtail Boas. The only main differences between a lot of them are their coloration and patterning. To me, BCC and BCI look to be in essence, the same snake. Except for of course, the coloration and patterning. Same with Hoggs, Surinames, etc. etc.. Those of us active in the Corallus community do not even think twice about the term 'NL'. We all know it is just an ETB with different markings. Granted, and it is the same for almost any species of reptile out there, there are numerous shady dealers and breeders out there who like to apply catchy names to reptiles in order to increase value and profit. I do not believe this to be the case with 'NL' ETB's.

Been fun discussing this with you, Jules. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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Ophiophagus-hannah · #12 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 06:23 AM

Great addition! Goodluck! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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JuliusSqueezer · #13 (**permalink**) 10-21-2002, 09:32 AM

I suppose I too am in the corallus community....I have emeralds and amazons scattered all throughout my house....funny thing though...a total backstep in this debate...I consider basins and northerns as a seperate species because and only because of physical differences...head scales being the biggest difference. The fact that herpetologists have seperated amazons like they have when noone can tell em apart unless they happen to have caught them and knew where they were when they did so....and have left these 2 or 3 if you say so animals all lumped together just baffles me to no end. LOL...anyway...dorsal stripe is cool, however subtle...I don't really see enough stripe to call it a stripe really...more like conected lightning bolts but since I do like to see a lot of white...I like the snake a lot...eye spots are cool too.. but many snakes have variations in patterns and coloring but are still the same species...I don't think if they go to seperating out the ssps that this merrits a different subspecies BUT I can see enough argument now to give them at least an identifying marker....I just don't get the NL thing...whoever tagged them as that didn't think it out too much .let me know if the price jumps up really high...i know where I can get some wild caught fresh import northerns really cheap and I already have plenty of whiteout lol.

I think what fuled my post in the first place was the title...NL x Northern.....when I see an X....it makes me think of integrading supspecies, which by your own deduction is not the case here.

Another thing about what you said about BCI BCC etc....Hogg Island boas look nothing like a Columbian BCI...they are much more unicolor and do not have anything close to a red tail...that is one locale of BCI that really really needs a new name...but since they are now extinct in the wild...what would be the point right?
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Johnny801 · #14 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 05:54 AM

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE> I suppose I too am in the corallus community....I have emeralds and amazons scattered all throughout my house....</BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

That you are, Jules. And being the case, you know you are always welcome to join us over at www.corallus.com and add your input. You know where it is, as you have been there before. It's an open invitation. And just in case you forgot, here is the link:

Corallus Forum.

There is even a thread going on there about our little discussion here.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>I consider basins and northerns as a seperate species because and only because of physical differences...head scales being the biggest difference. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

I feel the same way. In fact, so do many others. There are a lot of folks who feel Northerns and Basins should be separate species. The differences in head scalation being one of the main reasons as well.

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>BUT I can see enough argument now to give them at least an identifying marker....I just don't get the NL thing...whoever tagged them as that didn't think it out too much . </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

The term 'NL' is just an identifying marker. No specific locale can be given as very few people actually know the locale where thay were collected. And NONE of those who do know are willing to say where. I have been told of a person who may have been the one who coined the term 'New Locale'. I have sent him a pm asking him if he was the one. No answer so far. And I don't want to put his name in the mix without his permission. But, trust me. This gentleman is one of the main pioneers in ETB breeding. From what I've been told, 'NL' was just a spur of the moment, top of the head, thing. I don't think anyone thought it would catch on like it has. I guess I'll just have to wait and see what this gentleman has to say if he feels like responding to me.

A few more points. I was wrong in my saying that Northerns do not have laterals. It was pointed out to me that they do. And upon inspection of my Northern, I can see that I indeed was wrong. I was also told that the thing about 'NL' specimens is not that they have laterals. But that there are substantially more in number and of a thicker and brighter nature.

About the Redtail thing. I guess I would be more able to distinguish the different species/locales of Redtails if I was more into them and had more than 1 BCI. *LOL* [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif[/img]

I have invited others over here to add their input and?or validate/correct what I have said. And as I've said before, you are welcome to come over to Corallus to further elaborate on this. Or we can keep it here. [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I know I won't be able to change your mind, and you won't be able to change mine. But it has been fun trading thoughts and discussing this one! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif[/img]
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1sttimesnakeowner · #15 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 06:33 AM

I love the red snake!!! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_eek.gif[/img] very Very pretty! [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] [img]modules/Forum/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
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amazonjohn · #16 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 08:06 AM

That is a remarkable litter Dave Torro produced from truly awesome parents!! They are Dave's animals and he can call them whatever he wants...But if it were my litter I would have just called them high white emeralds. I think all this New Locale, Peruvian, etc. is all opinion, speculation and totally unproveable.
I have what I've been told are two Peruvian emeralds...and while I still think in my mind they could be Peruvian, I would never advertise their babies as Peruvian, as I would never know for sure. Thus they are just specially marked, high-white emeralds. I think high-white emeralds will always sell well and for a bit higher price than averagely marked northern emeralds...Although those "average" ones are very beautiful as well !!!
I understand Julius' skepticism and would agree that the term is just as flawed as calling hortulanus amazons "Cooks"!! The very term "New Locale" will always invariably beg the question..."Tell me, Just where IS this New Locale??" ...!!LoL!!
John Hedger
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JuliusSqueezer · #17 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 08:06 AM

Hey Johnny....hope ya don't think I was arguing...I certainly can see the differnece, I'm just not convinced it isn't mere selective breeding...which btw does also occur in nature, not just at Bob Clark or Ben Seigal's places.... especially with these little fellers that rarely roam far from their favorite tree. Maybe nature just got tired of the northerns being only half way adequetly decorated, and decided to spruce them up a bit. I love to see a lot of white. The more the better so these NLs do indeed have my attention. I guess I would have been a lot less bothered had they been called NL Northerns....My only complaint is that if they ever do go and seperate the species that I don't see quite enough differnce to seperate them entirely from other Northerns with a different ssp name....unless of course this New Location happens to be something as bizzare as West of the Andes somewhere...then I would perk up and pack my bags for Columbia or Peru or wherever. LOL

I am probably very alone in this feeling, but I think Northern Emeralds, whether normal or NL blow away any Basin overall in the looks dept. I prefer the brighter greens and the smoother scales especially of the head scales which don't seem so busy and cluttered. I like the lightning bolts better than the stripes and bars and do not like all the really dark basins loaded down with black tipped scales...well, it isn't fair to dislike them...they are all beautiful in their own way...I just hold no preference for them ....Imagine my surprise when I got into them that the Northerns cost a lot less than the basins....I remember just thinking...heh cool.

Oh and Hey Johnny, thanks for the invite...I will likely take ya up on that. Corallus.com has been my bible for corallus husbandry ever since I got into them and I always book mark the site first thing when setting up new machines....just after RTB of course lol...I have sent a lot of people there in the past and will continue to do so.

Hey firsttimesnakeowner....ya better love him hard and fast now....he's gonna be green like the rest before too long...not that that's a bad thing.
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JuliusSqueezer · #18 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 08:12 AM

Peru really? pardon my ignorance on this one LOL...but I have, oddly enough never studied over their entire range and have always thought of Northern Emeralds to hang cheifly from Suriname or Guyanan trees....How did they ever get all the way over into peru?
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JuliusSqueezer · #19 (**permalink**) 10-22-2002, 08:25 AM

Oh wow they do! lol...I don't know why I never felt a need to study their range ... I have just always heard either Guyana Shield or Amazon Basin for so long...that it never occured to me that they might also be found on the other side of the Mtns and river that divides South America. I wonder if somewhere back in time, the natives down there carried a few over and released them on the other side....that is a truely odd range for a snake that doesn't really move around very much.

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Johnny801 · #20 (**permalink**) 10-23-2002, 06:25 AM

Some more information has been brought to my attention. Seems I may be somewhat mistaken. I am not sure yet, but the author of this information is a person I believe to be both highly credible and knowledgable. Here is the information:

<TABLE BORDER=0 ALIGN=CENTER WIDTH=85%><TR><TD><font class="pn-sub">Quote:</font><HR></TD></TR><TR><TD><FONT class="pn-sub"><BLOCKQUOTE>I believe there are only 2 types of emeralds. Amazon Basins and "Northerns". The strongest evidence in my mind for this is based on some very general morphological characteristics of the two types which differ significantly in come cases. Namely, patterning, size, and scalation. Anyhow, I believe new locales tend to fall into the "Northerns" catagory.

In my opinion, a New Locale is a defined as a northern ETB exhibiting a combination of 3 characteristics which individually occur frequently on many other northerns. But rarely do these highly desireable traits come together on one animal.
It's as if the stars have to line up at just the right time during the creation of this animal.

I identify these traits as follows:
1) Eyespots
2) Enlogated dorsal-lateral markings terminating in a "drip"
3) Large and often numerous lateral markings.

I believe the "New Locale" tag is a bit of a misnomer...there is no "spot" that anyone can go to and consistently collect animals exhibiting these traits. The seem to occur randomely in the general emerald population as I've seen them come from both Guyana and Suriname shipments. And as far as I know it is not proven to be a genetic trait (although the offspring of these animals tend to exhibit one or more of the characteristics described above). I've also known of a pair of animals that consistently gave birth to the occasional "New Locale" with frequent offspring to babies also exhbiting one or more of the traits. </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></TD></TR><TR><TD><HR></TD></TR></TABLE>

This message was posted by Danny Mendez of Urban Jungles. A noted herpetologist and long time Corallus keeper.
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